Training Church Sheepdogs

This is a discussion on Training Church Sheepdogs within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I finally confided in my pastor and informed him that as long as I have known him, and ever time he has ever seen me, ...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 41

Thread: Training Church Sheepdogs

  1. #1
    Member Array Rbrown777's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    228

    Training Church Sheepdogs

    I finally confided in my pastor and informed him that as long as I have known him, and ever time he has ever seen me, I have been legally armed.

    Not knowing what his response might be I was a bit anxious, but didn't want to be in a state of non-disclosure.

    I was very pleased with his support and enthusiasm for formulating a security team. Many will likely be unarmed, many will be armed.

    Does anyone know of traing courses or resourses available to us in regards to training our sheepdog team in securing the "flock" from anything from a wayward substance abuser on a rant, to a full out terrorist rampage.
    "If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men." Romans 12:18
    ...if not...be prepared to meet Mr.10mm, .45, .40 or any one of their little brothers.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #2
    Member Array Ranger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    383
    I am a pastor, and have been for 13 years. I would suggest that if your church is part of a denominational system, the pastor should check with his local conference office (or applicable equivalent) for any denominational policies and/or resources, and also check with the church's insurance carrier for policies and resources.

    You'd hate to set up a program, have an incident and find yourselves out from under the umbrella of your denominational or insurance coverage.
    When in doubt, just ask yourself, "What would Theodore Roosevelt do?"

    Every society is 3 missed meals away from anarchy.

  4. #3
    Member Array Rbrown777's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    228
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger View Post
    also check with the church's insurance carrier for policies and resources.

    You'd hate to set up a program, have an incident and find yourselves out from under the umbrella of your denominational or insurance coverage.
    Yup, that was also discussed.

    We are a Calvary Chapel and rather loose in regards to upper level accountability.

    Both good points though, thank you!
    "If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men." Romans 12:18
    ...if not...be prepared to meet Mr.10mm, .45, .40 or any one of their little brothers.

  5. #4
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    McKinney, TX
    Posts
    3,507
    We discussed this a while back and there was a link to a neat site, Church security site for church safety, church video surveillance, church security training, church safety information and the latest church security news., that may have details and info that you will need.

    I recently volunteered for my Church's security team, I think I will be starting out checking for badges at the door to the children's building and hopefully will be able to feel out the group on if any others are armed (as I will be).
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

    -Paco
    http://www.shieldsd.net

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Fl
    Posts
    2,391
    It's a sad day when in America we have to worry about going to church. It's time we take our country back.

  7. #6
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,895
    Back when I was in middle school one of our history books had several chapters that dealt with the Pilgrims and how Thanksgiving Day came to be.

    There were all sorts of pictures in that book, showing the pilgrims in their tall hats with buckles on the front. It showed them eating at the table with Indians and even walking to church with their wives, carrying flintlock rifles and blunderbusses.

    Anyone remember seeing pictures like that? I'll bet you don't see them in school now. I'd also bet that back then no one went into a church and shot it up either.

    Thats the way we started out in this country, carrying guns to church and it was the normal thing to do.

    Looks like we might need to start it back up again.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  8. #7
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    McKinney, TX
    Posts
    3,507
    I always carry 2 things with me to church, the Word and the weapon. I figure I'm covered either way!
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

    -Paco
    http://www.shieldsd.net

  9. #8
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,794
    I would spend more time and effort on crowd control, incident management and effective communications than the "fun" stuff.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  10. #9
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Coral Gables, FL
    Posts
    5,802
    You know, I was just thinkin' (I do that sometimes) that if I were you and I wanted to form a "Church Security Team" I'd contact BLACKWATER WORLDWIDE and see if you can get a message to Eric Prince (CEO). WHY him? The whole family are devout Christians. I mean really. I don't know if it makes any difference that they're catholic. But I wonder if they'll see it as a "duty" to help you organize and train a church security team and maybe offer some kind of discount? Just a thought.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    2,292
    Quote Originally Posted by Guns and more View Post
    It's a sad day when in America we have to worry about going to church. It's time we take our country back.
    It's really nothing new.

    See:

    Beecher Bible and Rifle Church
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    McKinney, TX
    Posts
    3,507
    One thing I remember being discussed earlier is making sure that ALL of your carrying security members (If you have them) know each other by sight. Otherwise it could get real messy, real quick. Also if you have any LEO in the ranks that they know who to expect to pop up with a weapon and don't inadvertently turn their sights to a member fo the security team and off of the real BG.

    Another thing, as Sixto said, is crowd control. Doesn't do a whole lot of good to have a plan to get everyone out if you can't control them and they trample people or cause a bottleneck and get stuck in the sanctuary or some hallway, basically turning in to a shooting gallery for the BG.

    Well, gotta go get ready for Church.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

    -Paco
    http://www.shieldsd.net

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    ma
    Posts
    2,366
    I was wondering about your state of non-disclosure? I have considered telling my paster but never have if he says no I'll have to find an other church. There is a motto on this forum I've seen "always carry never tell" I have taken it to heart! I know two others that pack in church, one a CSI state trooper and one who works at a major rifle Co. We tend to all sit in the back spread out by the entrances. We have no plan other than the same mindset.

  14. #13
    New Member Array HammerheadFL's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    5

    Church Security

    Does anyone else have additional sites I can go to for more chruch security information

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    @ Wits' End
    Posts
    2,808
    In New England "Kansas Fever" ran high. The people of New Haven, Connecticut, raised money to send a group of colonists to Kansas, sixty or more men, led by one of New Haven's most respected citizens, Charles B. Lines. These were well educated men, many with professional training.. They left good jobs and good homes behind them. They were not just adventurers, with little to lose by going west; they were men making a sacrifice for their ideals.

    Before the Connecticut-Kansas Company left for Kansas, a meeting was held in North Church, in New Haven. Professor Silliman, of Yale, pledged $25.00 for a Sharps rifle for the Company. Then Henry Ward Beecher, the great minister from Brooklyn, pledged that his congregation would give the money for twenty-five rifles if the audience would give another twenty-five; people in the crowd responded in great excitement, and soon twenty-seven had been promised. A few days later Mr. Beecher sent Mr. Lines $625 for the rifles, and with the money came twenty-five Bibles, the gift of a parishioner.
    Wow! I want to try that.

    Hi Brothers and Sisters,

    Today we are taking up a special offering...

    The first $1,000 will go toward buying me an AR-15.
    The rest to arming the Mission team we are sending to Miami.

    Okay, well, maybe not.

    Back in my hole....
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    @ Wits' End
    Posts
    2,808
    Course Review: "Security for Faith-Based Organizations"
    Chad D. Baus

    Can we take the lessons learned in blood and lives at Columbine and the World Trade Center and apply them so we'll never take this [path] again, or do we have to wait until our kids die? - Lt. Col. Dave Grossman[1]

    A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it. - Proverbs 22:3

    Concerns over security at places of worship are increasing in the wake of massacre after massacre in "no-guns" (victim disarmament) zones across the country. With an increasing demand for information about what is needed to adequately prepare for the threat have come increased opportunities for training.

    After having written several articles [2] recently on the need for attention to the problem of defenseless places of worship in Ohio [3], and as a person who believes one can never have too much training, I was encouraged when contacted by Jeff Hawkins, Director of Security at the Creation Museum located outside of Cincinnati.

    Jeff Hawkins is a senior public safety and security professional with over 27 years of diverse experience working for profit, not-for-profit and government organizations on a local, regional and global level. He has over 1,000 hours of training in the areas of security, law enforcement and emergency management with such specialty agencies as the FBI, Northwestern University School of Police Staff and Command and the Counter Terrorism Unit in Israel. He has served as Adjunct Professor of Criminal Justice, Management, and Technology, and has written numerous articles for publications such as Law and Order, Police Magazine, Security Management, Security, Technology & Design and Safety and Health. He is a frequent speaker on the topic of security and public safety.

    Designed by a former Universal Studios exhibit director, the Creation Museum is a state-of-the-art, 65,000 square foot museum that brings the pages of the Bible to life by presenting a "walk through history." Mr Hawkins contacted me to let me know about a seminar he conducts on the museum campus, entitled "Security for Faith-Based Organizations."

    Faith-based organizations--defined by Hawkins as churches, mosques, temples, and shrines, as well as religion-oriented museums, schools, daycares, and so on--have traditionally lacked the security measures and emergency preparedness planning that businesses and other secular groups have put into place. Indeed, many of these organizations are reluctant to discuss whether or not they are aware of ever having been targeted and what, if any, active security preparations they have put in place (or decided against).

    "This issue that we face," Hawkins told me, "with rapidly escalating violent confrontations is one most [faith-based] organizations just refuse to address because the answer is never easy or cheap."

    Hawkins also notes that risks to their institutions come in many forms beyond a violent attacker, including arson, lawsuits, dangerous weather and medical emergencies.

    In order to address these concerns, and in the wake of having had to endure media criticism over a decision to provide armed security on their campus, the Creation Museum has begun offering its "Security for Faith-Based Organizations" seminar. The four-hour seminar, presented by Mr. Hawkins, provides an overview of the many facets of security, safety, and emergency planning that every organization should have in place -- no matter how large or small the organization might be. I attended the seminar as part of a delegation from my own church congregation.

    In order to put things in the proper perspective, the session investigates the growing threat to all religious venues and cites recent examples of foreign and domestic terrorism, as well as hate crimes.

    Specific topics also include security, emergency preparedness, critical incident response, due diligence, and background screening. Many faith-based organizations fear that even making such plans, let alone speaking out about them, will appear contrary to their mission and what they promote. The seminar includes an open discussion of what many institutions are presently doing and what they need to do in the future.

    "Both law enforcement and church leaders are coming to these seminars," Hawkins told me in advance. While there were a few representatives from law enforcement in the seminar I attended, it was only because they had volunteered to look into security planning for their own faith-based organization, and not as part of any official duties related to their job.

    At the beginning of the seminar, Hawkins explains that the goal of a good security plan is to put as many layers of security you can between your organization and the risk. He encourages attendees to release their imaginations, observing that "we lack the imagination to think it could happen." Hawkins advises that in developing a security plan we should "imagine every possible scenario, whether plausible or not, and plan, because the enemy is doing the same."

    "You can't 'kinda have' plans in place and hope that it'll hold in court. People have an expectation of security. They expect a safe, secure place, and courts have upheld liability for failing to provide one."

    The first step towards reaching the goal of providing that safe, secure place is to do a risk assessment. Hawkins suggests a formal meeting with your local police, fire and EMS officials to get a realistic feel for what they can do for you. "How fast and how big can their response be?" he asks, noting that organizations may need to plan their own medical response, security response, and other types of response. Hawkins reminds his seminar attendees that "the first responders aren't as ready as the instant responders. Don't think police, fire and EMS will be there to solve all of your problems. You need a plan to take care of and sustain yourself."

    Next, Hawkins recommends that faith-based organizations meet with their insurance carriers. The first meeting should determine coverage for plans that are being considered, while later meetings should supply representatives with the documented plan and work to educate them on any areas of concern.

    The third step toward the goal is to develop a Safety Team and a Security Plan. Hawkins advises that, depending on the needs identified in the risk assessment, the plans can consist of physical security (lighting, locks, landscaping, bollards, perimeter protection), electronic security (cameras, ID badges, alarm systems), and procedural security (who does what and where do they do it in an emergency?). The goal for the security plan, Hawkins teaches, is to move from a loosely-organized safety group into a focused, team-oriented unit.

    A fourth step towards the goal of providing a safe, secure place and create layered protection against a threat is performing extensive background checks. While he recognizes that it is sometimes difficult for a faith-based organization to do this without appearing judgmental, Hawkins says that not doing these checks, or not doing them well, "can get you into trouble on so many levels."

    After the Risk Assessment is complete, the organization should then work to put an emergency plan in writing, and then regularly practice the plan. For times when it is necessary to get everyone out of the building, evacuation drills should be run. For times when sending them outside would put them at greater risk, shelter-in-place (lockdown) drills should be developed. Hawkins stresses that there needs to be a plan for both.

    The emergency plan must also include an 'active shooter' plan. "There is only one reason you will put one in place," Hawkins says, "and it will be over in seven minutes." Hawkins noted that any police or other first responder will tell you that 'it'll all be over by the time we get there.' (At the time he said this, my immediate thought was "the reason it takes seven minutes is because that's when the good guys with guns show up. So why not reduce that time frame by having instant responders already on scene?")

    "Everyone has a plan," Hawkins observed. "Either wait for police or respond. No matter which they chose, the bottom line is that the only thing that responds to violence is greater violence."

    "You can't be wishy-washy with your plan," Hawkins continued. "You have to decide and decide early, then train, plan, train, plan, train."

    Hawkins also addressed some of the religious and emotional responses that can occur when planning for a response to violence, before finishing the seminar with a look at plans for medical assists, executive protection (including plans not only to protect the staff's safety, but also their integrity), intelligence (many times there is a forewarning), and safety in the field (mission trips and similar events).

    Whether it's your place of worship, school, or if you send groups on mission work, this seminar will provide you with the tools to properly plan.

    ***

    Chad Baus is the Buckeye Firearms Association (Buckeye Firearms Association | Defending Your Firearm Rights) Vice Chairman and Northwest Ohio Chair.

    Footnotes:

    [1] "Lt. Col Dave Grossman's Bullet-Proofing the Mind - A MUST for every concealed-carrier", February 15, 2008, Lt. Col Dave Grossman's Bullet-Proofing the Mind - A MUST for every concealed-carrier | Buckeye Firearms Association

    [2] "New Life Church Pastor Brady Boyd speaks out on church security preparedness", February 22, 2008, New Life Church Pastor Brady Boyd speaks out on church security preparedness | Buckeye Firearms Association

    [3] "Ohio's ban on defending lives in places of worship: How did it get this bad?", December 11, 2007, Ohio's ban on defending lives in places of worship: How did it get this bad? | Buckeye Firearms Association
    Here is an article from U.S. Concealed Carry that gives some information.
    Last edited by miklcolt45; August 24th, 2008 at 10:16 AM. Reason: dotn tyep so gud
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Sheep, Sheepdogs....
    By sdprof in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: December 18th, 2010, 10:29 PM
  2. Sheepdogs and Wolves
    By inman in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: March 14th, 2010, 10:32 PM
  3. nutnfancy (sheepdogs)
    By C hawk Glock in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: February 13th, 2010, 10:28 PM
  4. Carry in Church-again? - Missouri Church Shooting
    By miklcolt45 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: August 21st, 2007, 05:37 PM
  5. Old sheepdogs can still bite.
    By sgtD in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: June 7th, 2007, 07:48 PM

Search tags for this page

being a sheepdog for the church
,
can you conceal carry at creation museum
,
church armed sheep sheepdog
,
church crowd control training
,

church sheepdogs

,
cincinnati museum center concealed
,
crowd control and church security
,
hotgun baus/
,
sheepdog church security
,
sheepdogchurchsecurity
,

sheepdogs in the church

,
tactical training for armed church
Click on a term to search for related topics.