Do you look at your gun when it malfunctions?

This is a discussion on Do you look at your gun when it malfunctions? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by KenpoTex are you saying that you reinsert the same magazine that you just took out? If so, why not just use a ...

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 16 to 28 of 28

Thread: Do you look at your gun when it malfunctions?

  1. #16
    Member Array roadsiderob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    199
    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    are you saying that you reinsert the same magazine that you just took out? If so, why not just use a fresh mag as the mag that was in the gun might have been what caused the problem (bent feed lips, etc.)
    We're taught to use a fresh mag if one is available, if not, use what you've got. If I'm CCWing a semi auto I always have a spare mag, but not everyone does.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by roadsiderob
    We're taught to use a fresh mag if one is available, if not, use what you've got.
    gotcha...just making sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by roadsiderob
    If I'm CCWing a semi auto I always have a spare mag, but not everyone does.
    but everyone should...
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  4. #18
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,917
    While most self defense shooting situations are up close and personal, you are usually pretty much standing there toe to toe with your enemy so to speak.

    What I've been trying to ingrain in my current training is that as soon as there's a stoppage of any sort, immediately MOVE! Get away from the kill zone and either move towards cover or at least away from directly in front of my opponent. I'm trying to perform the Tap-Rack-Bang immediate action drill while on the move, or going immediately to my BUG while on the move since more often than not, I'm carrying a sub-compact high capacity XD as my BUG. What I am finding, is that if I am not going for the BUG and decide to do a Tap-Rack-Bang clearance... while moving to cover it does allow me a moment to glance at the weapon to see what type of stoppage I have.

    The last thing I want to do is stand there face to face while addressing a stoppage.

    One other method I am working on at extreme close quarters, within 3 feet or so is to immediately reach out and strike the BG's arm that is holding the gun with my weak hand, then strike him in the face with the barrel of my jammed weapon as I go for the BUG.

    To me the key is following one of the rules of Marine Corps gunfighting... Be aggressive enough, quickly enough!

    The second key is to train, train, train. When you're in full body alarm mode... You won't be able to perform what your brain tells you it wants to do if your brain has vapor locked because of something unexpected.

    I may be doing this all wrong, but I'll be doing something! And often times, that will get you through it.

    Lastly, I carry weapons known for their reliability. Glock, Springfield XD, or Ruger revolvers. So, the chances of having a stoppage in the first place, during that once in a lifetime event that's happening to me is highly unlikely.

    However, like I always say, Murphy seems to be my co-pilot, so I spend some time on stoppages or immediate action drills at every range session, and I always carry reloads for my guns.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array friesepferd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    east TN
    Posts
    2,341
    1. if stovepipe (dont need to look down to see those), then do the ol stovepipe sweep.
    2. if it goes click and you dont know why, tap rack bang
    3. if your tap rack bang is a tap rack click, the glance down, most likely a double feed, if so then clear that.
    4. if something else and ur in a gun fight, either grab ur bug or if you dont have one run for cover. if at the range, start cussing and figure out whats going on
    Wo die Notwehr aufhört, fängt der Mord an
    (Murder begins where self-defense ends)
    Georg Büchner

  6. #20
    Member Array echo5tango's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    NOLA
    Posts
    275
    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    ... What I've been trying to ingrain in my current training is that as soon as there's a stoppage of any sort, immediately MOVE! ...
    Funny, that sounds like a darn good way to stay alive

    If you aren't practicing on the move, whether or not you look at your weapon while clearing a malf is meaningless.

    In my mind, the very first thing to do in an armed confrontation is move (preferably to cover) and create distance OR move and gain the initiative (depending on the situation). If there's a malf (and it's bound to happen), continue moving to cover while clearing it; OR, if attempting to gain the initiative, transition immediately to the BUG/secondary weapon.

    All of this is completely academic ... honestly, I don't count on any of it working properly. I prefer to rely on the things I can control like my SA and the time and potential location of any conflict. (Some might say you can't control the time and potential location, but that's not exactly true. If I choose not to be in a high-risk area during a high-risk period of time, I have effectively controlled the time and location.)

    To the original question and poster, you need to FIRMLY establish the fundamentals, and that probably requires a visual reference. Once you've got the fundamentals established, you can move on to more advanced techniques like malf clearing with little or minimal visual reference.

    These types of techniques should be approached in a crawl-walk-run manner just like every other firearm manipulation skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by f8lranger4x4 View Post
    rack tap reasses
    Can you please provide reasoning for racking before tapping?

    As far as assessing or reassessing is concerned, I really must ask: Do you think tapping and racking a pistol is so overwhelmingly intimidating as to make your opponent flee with their tail between their legs? Honestly now, if you pulled the trigger and got a click instead of a bang, you OBVIOUSLY had to be justified in pulling that trigger. What is going to change in the half a second or so it takes to perform immediate action?

    Moreover, If you train this way, I think you're setting yourself up for a potential disaster. I would much rather train to tap-rack and immediately follow up with the intention of a well-placed shot (a shot which was obviously called for). If I've already gone through the OODA loop and determined this aggressor needs to be shot, I firmly believe having to go through that entire loop again at the end of performing immediate action (which MAY take half a second to perform) could put me behind the curve, so to say.

    In the end, I'd rather see a shot opponent than a shot or perforated me. You may be different, so YMMV.

  7. #21
    Member Array roadsiderob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM
    Posts
    199
    I like Tap, Rack, Reassess over Tap, Rack, Bang. When we train, sometimes we follow the malfunction with a shot, sometimes not. This is intentional in order to not condition ourselves to automatically shoot after a malfunction drill. Things may have changed in the time it took to duck for cover and clear the malfunction. The threat may have dissipated, the threat may have moved, a bystander may have gotten in the way, a new, more immediate threat may have materialized...etc. I don't want to condition myself to autorespond. I always want to think and pull the trigger with clear intentions and a clear purpose.

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array Shizzlemah's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    723
    If you pull the trigger and get a click, Autopilot will engage and tap-rack-reasses/TRB, eyes on the threat all the time.

    If there is no trigger action, or the slide is open, then it may be a doublefeed or stovepipe. That would get my eyes on the gun while it is being cleared.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    6,781
    Tap, rack, and bang it out is my fix for most everything.
    The only issue I've seen that has not been resolved by a TRB has been a broken extractor on a 1911.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #24
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,672
    I didnt read all the posts in this thread, so if I'm repeating someone else, please forgive me.

    This is one of those questions where there is a "right" answer and an honest answer.
    The right answer is no, there is no need to look at the gun. Action is needed to fix the problem, not looking. The Tap/rack will fix most everything, if it doesnt, strip the mag insert fresh mag, repeat tap/rack you will get a bang this time.

    The honest answer is yes. Most people myself included will look at the gun. I do it in shock (malfs just don't happen all that often) then in anger because I screwed something up.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #25
    Member Array Rob Pincus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Varies
    Posts
    169
    I would invite those participating in this thread to take a listen to my podcast from a couple months ago on the idea of the "Non-Diagnostic Linear Malfunction Drill". It is an excerpt from an Instructor Development Course lecture.

    The idea is that you shouldn't be planning on having the control/opportunity to look at the gun and diagnose the proper response to the malfunction.

    If we know that Tap-Rack is going to solve 90% of the problems and that a reload will save 90% of what's left, then that should be our trained, intuitive response. Just as we should be training to responded in a very automated and non-cognitive way to slide lock with an emergency reload, we should respond to any failure to fire with a Tap-Rack, if it happens twice, we go to a reload. If we can't complete the reload, we go to a complex reload: Rip the magazine (or lock slide and remove), clear the chamber, then reload.

    Of course, you may discover in the middle of one process that you need to skip to the next step (ie- you go to tap-rack and recognize that the slide is already locked open... you go right into your reload.).

    The more you prepare to do without looking at your gun or involving a complex diagnostic step, the better off (and more efficient) you are going to be.

    Checking the type of malfunction on a square range or in competition is going to be quick & easy.... but that's not what we're training for. We know that this is intuitive in those controlled situations (as sixto addressed above...), but it will probably not be as easy when you're facing an actual threat. Training to get the job done without the extra time-effort-energy of looking at the gun and thinking about it is the way to go.

    In your training environment, I have been recommending placing a placard of some kind downrange to give you a place to focus on to break the habit of looking at the gun:
    T-R
    R
    R(L/R)-C-R

    (Tap-Rack)
    (Reload)
    (Rip (lock/remove) - Clear - Reload)


    -RJP

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
    If we know that Tap-Rack is going to solve 90% of the problems and that a reload will save 90% of what's left, then that should be our trained, intuitive response. Just as we should be training to responded in a very automated and non-cognitive way to slide lock with an emergency reload, we should respond to any failure to fire with a Tap-Rack, if it happens twice, we go to a reload. If we can't complete the reload, we go to a complex reload: Rip the magazine (or lock slide and remove), clear the chamber, then reload.

    Of course, you may discover in the middle of one process that you need to skip to the next step (ie- you go to tap-rack and recognize that the slide is already locked open... you go right into your reload.).

    The more you prepare to do without looking at your gun or involving a complex diagnostic step, the better off (and more efficient) you are going to be.
    Good post, that's pretty much what I was trying to say but you did a better job of articulating it.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  13. #27
    Member Array Rob Pincus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Varies
    Posts
    169
    Thanks, Kenpo..... I get a lot of practice ;).

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Missouri
    Posts
    2,193
    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
    Thanks, Kenpo..... I get a lot of practice ;).
    really? what do you do?

    (I'm kidding, I intend to make it to one of your classes someday)
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Sig P238 Malfunctions
    By NCConcealed in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: September 29th, 2011, 04:13 PM
  2. My 1st malfunctions, ever, in 20+ years
    By BugDude in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: June 14th, 2010, 01:41 AM
  3. Have you trained for malfunctions like this?
    By mercop in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 28
    Last Post: September 15th, 2009, 03:40 PM
  4. pistol malfunctions
    By facemann in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: August 24th, 2007, 04:38 PM
  5. Malfunctions - how many?
    By P95Carry in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: October 25th, 2005, 06:55 PM

Search tags for this page

gun malfunctions acceptable

,

in pistol malfunction, why do have to tap the bottom of magazine?

,

tap rack reassess

,

why do you tap the magazine when you are performing immediate action and why do you rack the weapon

Click on a term to search for related topics.