Higher POA?

This is a discussion on Higher POA? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've raised my POA since more gang punks are getting busted with Body Armor. A little over a year ago I changed from a Sig ...

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Thread: Higher POA?

  1. #1
    Member Array 173ABN's Avatar
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    Higher POA?

    I've raised my POA since more gang punks are getting busted with Body Armor. A little over a year ago I changed from a Sig 239 DA/SA to a Sig 239 SAS/DAK, so when I retrained I raised my POA from COM to putting the sight on the chin/throat area. This still gives me a big bullet catch area and vital organ/stopping area while also getting above most Armor. Think about it, Thorax, spine = breathing, skeletal damage, lots of blood vessels and brain wave interruption. And yes I practice this moving.

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I practice 2 COM 1 head most of the time out to 7 yards if he ain't down with 2 next ones going between his eyes and continue til he stops
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    Member Array svinfinity45's Avatar
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    If you can hit the neck with the same reliability as COM every time I'd say thats a good idea.

    A lot of people would be a lot more confident on putting the first, and most important rounds in a more probable hit area like COM though. That is why the 2COM 1HS is practiced anyhow isn't it? I would think the first two even if body armor was present would throw the BD's concentration off enough for the .3-1 second it takes you to get the HS.

    Not saying your idea is bad, if you can hit it just as realiably and fast as hitting COM it's a good method for you!
    "I'd rather have one and not need it, than need one and not have it!"

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    Member Array 173ABN's Avatar
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    Actually, if you look at area, its almost the same, put a pie plate centered just below the chin. You only lose a slice above each collar bone, but gain head, throat/spine and many blood vessels to and from brain. Yes, practice is key, I try to at least go to the indoor range every week and do the "Scoot and Shoot" as often as possible in the desert where no range officer will get nervous. Between gang punks and hadji, I believe most of us will be tested soon.

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    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    "COM" is not a very precise concept. I think this is compounded by the fact that many LE-style Q-targets place the highest scoring area way too low. For example, on the B-27 the "X-ring" is at about solar-plexus level.

    Here is the easiest rule of thumb I've heard for hitting the proper target area of the torso: When looking at the attacker (regardless of which direction they're facing) imagine a vertical line splitting him into equal halves (right down the centerline of the body), then imagine a horizontal line at the level of the top of the armpits. Shoot the spot where these lines intersect. Hitting this spot will give you a good chance of hitting either the heart, lungs, or aorta.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

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    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    "COM" is not a very precise concept. I think this is compounded by the fact that many LE-style Q-targets place the highest scoring area way too low. For example, on the B-27 the "X-ring" is at about solar-plexus level.
    Great point. I ask students what COM is and get all different answers.

    The cardiovascular triangle is a good targeting concept. Put your fingers on your adam's apple and draw lines to each nipple then across to connect. Any shots in there would be good hits.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

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    Member Array Rob Pincus's Avatar
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    FWIW, we use the phrase "high center chest" instead of COM to raise the POA.

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    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
    FWIW, we use the phrase "high center chest" instead of COM to raise the POA.
    I prefer that term myself.
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

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    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 173ABN View Post
    Actually, if you look at area, its almost the same, put a pie plate centered just below the chin. You only lose a slice above each collar bone, but gain head, throat/spine and many blood vessels to and from brain. Yes, practice is key, I try to at least go to the indoor range every week and do the "Scoot and Shoot" as often as possible in the desert where no range officer will get nervous. Between gang punks and hadji, I believe most of us will be tested soon.
    Good ideas for sure. I can't remember exactly who told me this, but they stated that they practiced hitting a golf ball at 7 yards as that's about the size of the lethal target at the base of the throat. BG's with body armor? Now where are they getting this stuff? How can they afford it?

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    Array RETSUPT99's Avatar
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    This all changes when the adrenaline rush hits...

    COM will still knock a victim back...way back...who has on armor of any kind...stops the threat, temporarily...then refocus the shot.

    OMO

    Stay armed...2 Com, 1 H (OK, maybe 2 H)...stay safe!
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    Member Array 173ABN's Avatar
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    Part II is breath control to slow and minamize adrenaline rush. Learned that in Nam, slow, deep breathing when you see danger or feel fear coming on, will do wonders for tunnel vision and twitch.

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    I don't believe that at the distance you would be using your handgun for SD you will be able to control your breathing. A civilian or even patrolman involved in a shooting is not like military personnel or a a cop on a SWAT job where you can kinda set your trigger a bit. It is all of a sudden like someone jamming on their brakes in front of you. During the OS moment you don't think about breath.

    I always think back to when I was a kid bird hunting with my dad and he leaned his shotty against a tree to take a leak, and their with his you know what in his hand a bird flew up about five feet in front of him. He was like OS, that is just how fast things happen.

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    Member Array 173ABN's Avatar
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    Not to argue, but in the OS situation, its over before the tunnel vision sets if you trained to hit what your aiming for. The rush is dangerous if you see danger, anticipate violence and do nothing to slow it down. I do agree most civilians would have a hard time training mind and body, having never experienced a life/death situation. I used to Sky Dive, reading the the monthly death and accident reports, it is obvious that in a crisis situation, people fixate and burn in. Example, new gear with new location of pilot chute, clawing at old pilot chute location all the way in. Why?Something went wrong, they let panic take over and had not retrained enough to reset muscle memory of the new gear.

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    Distinguished Member Array old grunt's Avatar
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    Practice Practice!!

    Graduated from the FBI Tactical Pistol School in 2005. We spent a bit of time doing drills that focused on incapacitation shots to the brain/central nervous system. It's common knowledge that aside from blood loss the only "sure thing" when it comes to "a stop" are brain or upper spinal cord hits so I applaud you for adjusting your POA. We used to call these "body armor drills"....2 to the chest and 1 to the head! As an aside had the pleasure of attending this class with Bill Allard of the famed NYPD "Stakeout Unit" and partner of the late great Jim Cirillo. Talk about stories!!! Bill sure had them, not to mention a wealth of practical experience in "real world"shootings.
    Keep up the good work Airborne!!!!!!!!!!!! ALL THE WAY !!!!
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    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    All I'll say about head shots is that you have to be squared away to make them. Body armor drill or failure to stop drills on paper are good practice, but real heads move and under stress it's a tough shot. These are an excellent sim drill.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

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