Chuck Taylor on Competition.

This is a discussion on Chuck Taylor on Competition. within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This from the new edition of G&A Personal Defense magazine... "And yet, much of what has appeared in the last four decades is relatively worthless ...

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Thread: Chuck Taylor on Competition.

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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Chuck Taylor on Competition.

    This from the new edition of G&A Personal Defense magazine...


    "And yet, much of what has appeared in the last four decades is relatively worthless for self defense because it's the result of competition target shooting in one form or the other. from good old-fashioned bullseye competition to PPC shooting to IPSC and it's related endeavors, competition
    has contributed little to useful self defense.
    ...Competition shooting allows the participant to examine the course of fire, determine how best to deal with it and even practice it in advance until he feels he has reached an acceptable efficiency level.....In combat the opposite is true, which is why for well over 100 years, competition shooting techniques have always failed to save lives when applied to life and death situations.
    Self defense is a serious business, a business in which ego drive, the primary motivator of all forms of competition, can quite literally get you killed.
    Please understand that I have nothing against competition. in fact, I was once a world class IPSC shooter, but sport shooting did not teach me how to stay alive in the multiple gunfights I've been in during my lifetime...
    ..Again, in spite of what some competition shooters think, I am not anti-competition. On the other hand, having been both a sucessful competitor and a survivor of multiple gunfights, I believe that I am uniquely qualified to judge the difference, which is nothing less than extreme....
    ..Competition is fine, but let's not call it combat. To do otherwise is just plain wrong--dangerously wrong, in fact." (pg 20-22)

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    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    I'm not an expert, and don't currently compete so take this FWIW.
    I tend to view competition as "practice" as opposed to "training." Competition can definitely improve your skill...shooting fast and accurately, performing reloads and manipulations under pressure (even if it's "only" the pressure of competition), and shooting on the move. I don't think anybody out there is going to try to argue that IPSC or IDPA Masters are not damn good shooters. Another benefit I see with competition is that it gives you the opportunity to do things you can't do at your average range.

    That said, I also think there is a real need for training in how to FIGHT with a gun...training with the proper mindset and learning/using tactics that are appropriate to the situation.

    Of course, the shooting is only one small part of the equation. Other necessary training includes FOF, empty-hand combatives, edged/impact weapons (both offense and defense), "unknown-contact management", deescalation, ditch medicine, etc...
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    I'm not an expert, and don't currently compete so take this FWIW.
    I tend to view competition as "practice" as opposed to "training." Competition can definitely improve your skill...shooting fast and accurately, performing reloads and manipulations under pressure (even if it's "only" the pressure of competition), and shooting on the move. I don't think anybody out there is going to try to argue that IPSC or IDPA Masters are not damn good shooters. Another benefit I see with competition is that it gives you the opportunity to do things you can't do at your average range.

    That said, I also think there is a real need for training in how to FIGHT with a gun...training with the proper mindset and learning/using tactics that are appropriate to the situation.

    Of course, the shooting is only one small part of the equation. Other necessary training includes FOF, empty-hand combatives, edged/impact weapons (both offense and defense), "unknown-contact management", deescalation, ditch medicine, etc...
    Well said...
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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoTex View Post
    I'm not an expert, and don't currently compete so take this FWIW.
    I tend to view competition as "practice" as opposed to "training." Competition can definitely improve your skill...shooting fast and accurately, performing reloads and manipulations under pressure (even if it's "only" the pressure of competition), and shooting on the move. I don't think anybody out there is going to try to argue that IPSC or IDPA Masters are not damn good shooters. Another benefit I see with competition is that it gives you the opportunity to do things you can't do at your average range.

    That said, I also think there is a real need for training in how to FIGHT with a gun...training with the proper mindset and learning/using tactics that are appropriate to the situation.

    Of course, the shooting is only one small part of the equation. Other necessary training includes FOF, empty-hand combatives, edged/impact weapons (both offense and defense), "unknown-contact management", deescalation, ditch medicine, etc...
    Well said and I fully agree.
    Yet there are many who think that competition is the end all towards combat training/proving combat effectiveness and I am glad that a man such as Chuck Taylor has set the record straight.

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    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
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    Good Info!

    Very Good OP!

    Matt thanks for sharing that with us, KenpoTex, Well Said!

    P.S. Matt now that I have a NEW range facility you should come out and teach a course or 2 or 3 or 4.

    There is nothing like having your own range facility, except making the payments.


    Tom Perroni

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Games are not how I prefer to spend my training time. When you put a trophy in front of people they will try to win it.

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    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
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    Mercop,

    While I respect your point, I use any trigger time I can get to improve my skills.

    Shooting is a perishable skill so I take all the training I can, competition or just dry fire practice.

    P.S. a TROPHY would look nice on my desk.

    Tom Perroni

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    Interesting. This very topic came up on GlockTalk and the flavor I got from reading many posts was that IDPA, would cause you no harm in a gunfight and the honed shooting skills developed from competitive shooting may even give you an edge.

    Also, they noted that no one could give one instance of where a competitive shooter came to any harm in a gunfight due to tactics or shooting skills learned in competitive shooting.
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    Member Array Erik's Avatar
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    My take on the matter virtually mirrors KempoTex's.

    I'll add only that the assumption that advanced shooters who compete will somehow discard tactics and the realities of the world are unfounded; at least, I am unaware of any instances lending weight to the contrary.

    IIRC, Chuck Taylor's shootings lend weight to the notion that his competition training were an asset, not hindrance, given the means of resolution. But it has been a while since I read about them and I may be remembering things incorrectly. Perhaps someone else has a sharper memory on the matter?
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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post
    Very Good OP!

    Matt thanks for sharing that with us, KenpoTex, Well Said!

    P.S. Matt now that I have a NEW range facility you should come out and teach a course or 2 or 3 or 4.

    There is nothing like having your own range facility, except making the payments.


    Tom Perroni
    Thanks Tom.
    7677 and myself have a few classes planned for next year and we would love to put one (at least) at your digs.
    PM soon to be enroute.

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    Member Array Slabsides45's Avatar
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    I tend to think of things in somewhat simple terms: given the choice, I'd much rather enter the fray against a guy who carries without practicing than a guy who carries and competes in IPSC every weekend. How about y'all?

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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slabsides45 View Post
    I tend to think of things in somewhat simple terms: given the choice, I'd much rather enter the fray against a guy who carries without practicing than a guy who carries and competes in IPSC every weekend. How about y'all?
    Like many things in life, it all depends upon the guy.

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    Member Array Slabsides45's Avatar
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    Agreed, but in general, you know which you'd choose, too. If you gotta run into a mean dog on the morning walk, you want a chihuahua or a Rottie? Well, IN GENERAL....

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    I tend to think of things in somewhat simple terms: given the choice, I'd much rather enter the fray against a guy who carries without practicing than a guy who carries and competes in IPSC every weekend. How about y'all?
    That's certainly a valid point, Slab.... but I think the topic on the table should be looked at this way:

    If you have 3-6 hours to devote "shooting related activity" every weekend and your stated primary concern is to better prepare yourself for defensive use of firearms, is that IPSC competition the best way to spend your time?

    It seems to miss the point to make the choices Competition or Nothing.

    ****

    FWIW:

    There are well known instructors on both sides of the competition argument who make self-serving declarations in regard to the value of such activity or the relative legitimacy of success in competition as a measure of defensive ability. As usual, I think the guys who try to make it a Black & White issue are relying on cults of personality more than logic to win "arguments".
    I fall more to the side that recommends real training/practice instead of games and I pretty solidly dispute the idea that success in competition indicates a preparation for realistic defensive situations. Therefore, when students ask, I'll explain why I feel that way and leave it up to them to decide if they think it is a good use of time.
    Ultimately, I think that competing for the sake of fun, ego, friendship and/or to win luxurious prizes are all just fine as long as those reasons are acknowledged by the participant and not obscured or rationalized by some overstated training value.

    -RJP

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    Senior Member Array jualdeaux's Avatar
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    IDPA and IPSC are not, and never will be, training. They are games that let you practice certain skills. Drawing from concealment, reloading various ways, shooting from cover, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, engaging multiple targets, engaging targets at various ranges and at various directions; these are all valuable skills to practice that you can't do at traditional static ranges.

    Proper training is a must, but if you don't regularly practice those skills you learn in training, you are going to lose them. IDPA and IPSC helps one keep some of those skills.
    Bend the knees, smooth is fast, watch the front sight.

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