Position SUL - Page 3

Position SUL

This is a discussion on Position SUL within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ...

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Thread: Position SUL

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    10-4 and copy.
    Over and out on this one.

  3. #33
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Darn.

    Just when the "Let's see who can pee higher on the tree" contest was getting interesting.

    Next time, let's have a "Lick the pump handle" contest in January or a "Let's urinate on the 'lectric fence" group urination.

    Out.

    Biker

  4. #34
    Member Array 7677's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post
    I first started using a one-handed SUL in 2000 when I was a patrol K-9 handler. It enabled me to move tactically with gun out in strong hand and leash in support hand. If I pointed my gun a certain way, my dog took interest in that direction, so SUL worked in keeping the dog working. To this day I use it in movement. It's a great technique to know.
    Semperfi,
    Like you, I have been using a one handed method similar to what has been coined SUL during building searches, in crowded buildings and later during protection details. I was first taught this in the academy in 1995.

    Later when I changed agencies, we were taught team tactics for drug house raids they taught the same one handed muzzle down technique with pistols, so that the instructors could visually confirm that everyone's firearm in the stack was pointed down and the support hand was used as a fence to deflect/move anyone in the way.

    So is hard for me to get exited about the "SUL" technique because it ties up both of my hands and in crowded locations I've had to use my support hand to clear a path to the trouble while I had my weapon out for immediate use.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scot Van View Post
    Tom, your description is very useful, but the pictures posted by other members really solidified what you're talking about. Thanks to all posters. I'm looking forward to training with you again soon, DCJS!
    Scot,

    Here is an Officer in one of my classes using SUL!
    Attached Images

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    I still go with elbows in. It's much more covert as a ready position, practical in close quarters, tactical in movement and stacking and is safer than exposing a joint.

    Thumbs look good there, but IMO elbows out (chicken wings) looks amateurish. I teach several variations of SUL transfer to retention positions and elbows in is crucial as elbows out lacks the leverage for the operator to keep retention of the gun.


    Agreeing to disagree, Tom. I applaud you for teaching it, many don't. Position SUL is IMO one of the most useful handgun positions to have queued up.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  7. #37
    Distinguished Member Array Rexster's Avatar
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    I was recently taught SUL in my agency's "active shooter" course, though I had been acquainted with it while reading about it on various forums, and had been doing it more or less correctly already, when searching buildings and other cramped areas with fellow officers.

    One drawback to SUL is that it can get really uncomfortable really quick. My carry-side wrist is developing some health issues, with just little twinges of pain, until my active shooter class, when they became major when using SUL for more than just a few moments.

    SouthNarc taught me what I think he called an "averted" #2 a few years ago, which accomplishes the same thing as SUL, and allows me to keep my wrist straighter, if I am doing the #2 correctly, with my elbow back. There is nothing special about the term "averted #2;" it simply means you are at position #2 of his draw-and-fire sequence, and have averted your muzzle downward. His normal #2 is high and against the pec, with muzzle very slightly depressed, pointed forward.

    Just to be clear, I am not being critical of SUL; I think it is a good technique, and it still works well with my non-carry-side hand, which also happens to be my primary side with long guns, and I will switch my handgun to that hand for various reasons.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by semperfi.45 View Post


    I still go with elbows in. It's much more covert as a ready position, practical in close quarters, tactical in movement and stacking and is safer than exposing a joint.

    Thumbs look good there, but IMO elbows out (chicken wings) looks amateurish. I teach several variations of SUL transfer to retention positions and elbows in is crucial as elbows out lacks the leverage for the operator to keep retention of the gun.


    Agreeing to disagree, Tom. I applaud you for teaching it, many don't. Position SUL is IMO one of the most useful handgun positions to have queued up.
    When teaching CQB I teach my students that the elbows should be kept close to the body to prevent “chicken winging” which will restrict fluid movement through doors and hallways. However when in the open, I teach them to keep the elbows out as a means to assist in weapons retention by using the elbows to sheild a gun grab.

    However please note what I teach is A way to do it not THE way to do it. I am always looking for a better way to teach my officers and students.

    Tom P.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rexster View Post
    I was recently taught SUL in my agency's "active shooter" course, though I had been acquainted with it while reading about it on various forums, and had been doing it more or less correctly already, when searching buildings and other cramped areas with fellow officers.

    One drawback to SUL is that it can get really uncomfortable really quick. My carry-side wrist is developing some health issues, with just little twinges of pain, until my active shooter class, when they became major when using SUL for more than just a few moments.

    SouthNarc taught me what I think he called an "averted" #2 a few years ago, which accomplishes the same thing as SUL, and allows me to keep my wrist straighter, if I am doing the #2 correctly, with my elbow back. There is nothing special about the term "averted #2;" it simply means you are at position #2 of his draw-and-fire sequence, and have averted your muzzle downward. His normal #2 is high and against the pec, with muzzle very slightly depressed, pointed forward.

    Just to be clear, I am not being critical of SUL; I think it is a good technique, and it still works well with my non-carry-side hand, which also happens to be my primary side with long guns, and I will switch my handgun to that hand for various reasons.
    Rexter,

    That sounds good to go!

    SouthNarc from all acounts I have heard is a very good Instructor with a solid LEO background.

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post
    However please note what I teach is A way to do it not THE way to do it. I am always looking for a better way to teach my officers and students.
    I agree and I like your style.

    One of my favorite parts of teaching is being a student myself and noting individual styles of technique and finding out why the shooter prefers it and how they apply it.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    I have never been a big fan of Sul for CQB due to my Wing Chun training. If you get to going around a corner and an assailant gets a good press on the top hand into your torso they have not only rendered your firearm useless but have also disabled your support hand to help fend off blows. A bit of the ol' slicey-dicey or a nice shot in the neck while your hands are squished into your torso doesn't strike me as a good day at the office.

    That said, I'm not going to lie and say that I have the perfect answer to this scenario (or even something better) but I think it's a valid weakness to the technique and it's why I don't use it myself (besides the fact that I'm not ever stacked up with some go-boys).

  12. #42
    Member Array Erik's Avatar
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    "If you get to going around a corner..."

    There's a time and a place for SUL, and I suggest that taking a corner isn't that place. Nor have I ever heard anyone suggest otherwise.
    God, country, family.

  13. #43
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    if lead man and going around a corner, you shouldn't be in Sul, but should have handgun tucked tight into chest muzzle forward (but not so tight that the slide can't cycle back properly without hitting the chest), providing you the opportunity to look around corner and shoot if need be

    we use position sul at the range and we're taught to use it whenever we're clearing buildings or while on the move with other friendly folks around, those of us with long arms were taught to modify it a bit and pull our gun hand slightly to the gun side to relieve the wrist a bit, I like it and can come from sul to on target and fire faster than from a traditional low ready, easier to get eyes on front sight and stab out while taking slack off the trigger
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  14. #44
    Member Array Erik's Avatar
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    "If lead man and going around a corner, you shouldn't be in Sul..."

    Correct.
    God, country, family.

  15. #45
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    So as a CCWer, I basically shouldn't bother with Sul.

    Gotcha.

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