Tactics as opposed to gadgets.

Tactics as opposed to gadgets.

This is a discussion on Tactics as opposed to gadgets. within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I recently watched the new DVD that Crimson Trace is offering for free. Great vid, BTW, and very nice to see Wes Doss and Ken ...

Results 1 to 10 of 10
  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    nyc
    Posts
    726

    Tactics as opposed to gadgets.

    I recently watched the new DVD that Crimson Trace is offering for free.
    Great vid, BTW, and very nice to see Wes Doss and Ken Hackathorn in action.
    Two very serious hombres.
    Naturally the DVD wants to sell you a laser unit and makes some good cases why one needs a laser on their pistol.
    The main selling points that the DVD makes is that we are wired to focus on the threat, and that since so many encounters happen in low light, looking for a front sight in an actual close range gunfight is based more on faith than reality.
    So far so good.
    However, 99% of the shots that the video shows ( full extension, half extension, from the ground, from positions of disadvantage,etc) can be made by a trained point shooter without the need to search for a red dot--something which may or may not be visable when IT hits the fan.
    Now this is not a knock on lasers, since I do see a place for them in both a SWAT/Military and a training venue.
    But I question if the typical armed citizen, who is trained in point and aimed shooting techniques, really needs one


  2. #2
    Member Array TapRackBang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    432
    From what I have been taught most shooting are very close quarters and over very fast.

    I'm not sure what advantage sight/lasers have under that stress. Has there ever been research on shootings in reference to the shooter actually accessing a sight picture during the heat of battle?

    I am of the opinion that if you practice drawing and point shooting and your hitting your target you should be ahead of the curve.

    Under extreme stress your body will respond with what ever training has been repeated enough to become a reactive response.
    "Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion..in private self defense." John Adams

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array PaulJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    616
    I own one gun with, and one without laser. At the range, I don't feel a big difference in accuracy.

    So but why am I thinking about getting a laser for the other gun (Glock 27)? The main reason is that I think under stress, the laser will help. I don't have to think about sights and think it will gain me the extra fraction of a second. Just squeeze the trigger if the red dot hits center of mass. Of course ranges are always well lit and it is hard to simulate a realistic encounter.

    Now others say the same thing can be achieved with sufficient training. But as an "armed citizen" as opposed to a SWAT/Special Forces person, there are limits to how much training one can get. I go to the range about once or twice a month, and shoot maybe 100-200 rounds each time.

    The only reason I haven't gotten a laser for my Glock yet is that I first want to take some "real training" to possibly reconsider after that. Another reason is of course the extra bulk the laser adds to the grip.

    Now if Sixto could please tell me why I am totally wrong :-)
    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. (Thomas Jefferson)

  4. #4
    Member Array bonehead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    474
    Likely 9 times out of 10, a laser will provide absolutely no tactical advantage in CQC as others have said, the fight will be over before it becomes a relevant factor. But in that 1 out of 10, it could also serve as a psychological deterrent/delay tactic to put more distance between the BG and myself, similar to racking a shotgun. I would imagine seeing a laser pointed COM would make me stop and hesitate.

    All that being said, I have a TLR-2 and have used it only once. Don't want to rely on it and it's just another damn thing to clean after a day of shooting

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    OKC; by way of St. Mayberry, GA
    Posts
    4,750
    I have a pair of G23's........one of 'em has a CT installed.

    It's a GREAT training aid WRT trigger control and point-shooting training.
    I believe the laser has it's place in a (low light) HD situation and certinally MIGHT have a positive effect on 'whoever' see the business end of my laser......but I do not rely on the laser for aiming or accuracy. I can hit my intended target without it. If you HAVE to have a laser, your training and skills are lacking.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    ma
    Posts
    2,366
    Quote Originally Posted by goldshellback View Post
    I have a pair of G23's........one of 'em has a CT installed.

    It's a GREAT training aid WRT trigger control and point-shooting training.
    I believe the laser has it's place in a (low light) HD situation and certinally MIGHT have a positive effect on 'whoever' see the business end of my laser......but I do not rely on the laser for aiming or accuracy. I can hit my intended target without it. If you HAVE to have a laser, your training and skills are lacking.
    Well said, I agree 100%. Great training device.
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array semperfi.45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Over here now!
    Posts
    3,616
    IMO they are great as a tool for experienced Firearms Instructors to help diagnose problem shooters and a necessity for SWAT operators who are shield guys.

    I watched that DVD yesterday. It was a little corny, some of the observations I made:

    Julie Golosky is a bad actor (but a great competition shooter) and will not find her niche in the self defense realm.

    I disagree with some of Mr. Hackathorn's tactics. A legend he is, but tactics do evolve.

    Todd Jarrets one shot stop is just too "Hollywood" and was end of the line for me.
    Training means learning the rules. Experience means learning the exceptions.

  8. #8
    Moderator
    Array Rock and Glock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Colorado at 14,650'
    Posts
    12,552
    I'd just add that as eyes fail, they can be an aid.

  9. #9
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    CONUS
    Posts
    431
    Let me start out by saying that I have a ton of respect for Wes Doss and Ken Hackathorn and I am friends with Todd Jarret.

    However this video left a lot to be desired!

    I too agree that the laser has uses for Instruction, Military and SWAT but in my humble opinion take the money you would spend on the laser and come train with Matt and I at my training facility. Or for that matter any competent Instructor, You won't be disappointed!

    Just my $0.02

    Matt - Rob Pincus will be at my facility on Dec 8-9! Teaching Combat Focus Shooting! I would love to do a LEO only class with you! Yes I got your message and will call you back Monday those dates are good to go!

    Tom

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    nyc
    Posts
    726
    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post
    Let me start out by saying that I have a ton of respect for Wes Doss and Ken Hackathorn and I am friends with Todd Jarret.

    However this video left a lot to be desired!

    I too agree that the laser has uses for Instruction, Military and SWAT but in my humble opinion take the money you would spend on the laser and come train with Matt and I at my training facility. Or for that matter any competent Instructor, You won't be disappointed!

    Just my $0.02

    Matt - Rob Pincus will be at my facility on Dec 8-9! Teaching Combat Focus Shooting! I would love to do a LEO only class with you! Yes I got your message and will call you back Monday those dates are good to go!

    Tom
    Roger that.
    Give Rob my regards.
    Have a good Holiday!!

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Two bills that VCDL opposed are now dead
    By DaveH in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: January 27th, 2010, 08:35 PM
  2. Solicitor General Clement Says He Will Step Down; Opposed “Heller”
    By paramedic70002 in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: May 27th, 2008, 08:52 AM
  3. Senator Feinstein Is Opposed To Guns In Parks
    By Captain Crunch in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: May 2nd, 2008, 09:06 AM
  4. Rep. Borris Miles was protected by a self-defense law, A law he opposed
    By mrreynolds in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: April 23rd, 2008, 01:52 PM

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors