Drawing after physical contact

This is a discussion on Drawing after physical contact within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My buddy John and I were shooting some video on combative anatomy for my website and wanted to share some points of interest. First of ...

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Thread: Drawing after physical contact

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Drawing after physical contact

    My buddy John and I were shooting some video on combative anatomy for my website and wanted to share some points of interest.

    First of all I prefer the appendix carry position but for the purposes of the video wore an open top kydex Phantom holster by Raven Concealment. I wear the holster just behind the pocket seam, not behind the hip as many do. I wore the belt holster in this position because most people who will watch the video will be carrying that way. I was wearing a t-shirt over the holster and a light fleece vest over that.

    The point of the video was to show the interchangeability of open hand, stick and knife doing the same tactic and then the transitioning to the pistol.

    John was attacking me with a Rings Manufacturing Blue Box Cutter trainer. It was a simple drill where he would take a hard slash at me, I'd pass his his arm and push him back to gain the time and distance to draw my pistol.

    We did this several times with John's initial attack at almost combat speed, with me defending at combat speed. I attempted to draw my pistol at combat speed with John re-attacking at about 50%. Our findings-

    Hooking with my strong side thumb or even my whole hand never effectively exposed the weapon for drawing.

    Several times I drew the blue gun from my holster with my t-shirt wrapped around the gun.

    The only thing that worked under pressure both times we filmed it was using my reaction side hand and pulling my t-shirt way up exposing my gun to draw.

    This is a reason why any level on force on force is so important. I was not drawing in response to the initial threat, or a whistle or a buzzer. I was drawing after being lucky enough to defend against an initial attack before the bad guy could re-attack me. My full attention was focused on how far away he was from me a and defending against that instead of getting my gun out. My primitive mind wanted my hand up between us and my trained mind wanted to use it to lift my shirt. Had he re-attacked at combat speed I believe my primitive mind would have won out knowing I had to block/evade that box cutter again.

    Too often in training we draw on targets that are not moving towards us rapidly allowing us to concentrate on drawing our gun. Seldom do we practice drawing after breaking contact during a violent attack.

    You don't have to get fancy with force on force. This little drill will show you the difference between driving home and NASCAR.

    We are going to shoot this again soon drawing from the appendix position.

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    jfl
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    Distinguished Member Array jfl's Avatar
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    Very interesting !!!
    It is amazing what stress will do to your fine motor skills.
    The first rule of a gunfight: "Don't be there !"
    The second rule: "Bring enough gun"

    jfl
    (NRA Life Member/Instructor - GOA - IDPA - GSSF - ex-IHMSA)

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    Distinguished Member Array pcon's Avatar
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    i went to the site and couldn't find the vid? am i blind?
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    Very good observation. I practice clearing shirt away with one hand and drawing with the other. This will make me go back and see if i can do it with one hand only. Thanks for highlighting this.
    NRA Member

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    It is not up yet, got a bit of editing to do because we shot some short videos on several topics that day like-

    dealing with the tough guy push
    headlock defense
    panic push into a vertical stun
    basic stab defense

    Hopefully a few will be up this weekend.

    The easiest way to mimic this and the way I do it in pistol and knife courses is to have someone stand about 7 yards from you. As they start walking towards you, draw. As you get better have them walk faster and faster until they are charging you. Then add a training knife or baton. This is best done with a Blue Gun or an air soft and the required safety equipment. You can also change it up by sitting in your car, or just standing in the open door of your car. You will see that your body movement to the side or up and down will may have a major effect on the mechanics of your draw. When someone is charging you your mind is beating you over the head to get your hands in front of you. This will become even more evident as they produce weapons. You can have your training partner change out weapon. If they are charging you and you don't see a weapon, do you necessarily want draw your gun?

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Mercop,

    Why did you wear your t-shirt out rather than tucked in?

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    For my entire career I have concealed my pistol with an untucked t-shirt. The main reason is that I am about 20 degrees hotter than other people. Yesterday it was 40 degrees here and I was in Woolrich cargo shorts and a t-shirt over under armor. To be comfortable indoors like say a restaurant I need to be able to take my jacket off if I am wearing one, and if I do my gun is still concealed.

    This is one of the main reasons I prefer appendix carry. IMHO it offers you the best chance to deploy your pistol during these type situations. Even though when wearing appendix you would likely have to use your weak hand to clear the shirt as least a little it provides more economy of motion since both hands are traveling he same path on your center line.

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    Member Array NCinstructor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    The easiest way to mimic this and the way I do it in pistol and knife courses is to have someone stand about 7 yards from you. As they start walking towards you, draw. As you get better have them walk faster and faster until they are charging you. Then add a training knife or baton. This is best done with a Blue Gun or an air soft and the required safety equipment. You can also change it up by sitting in your car, or just standing in the open door of your car. You will see that your body movement to the side or up and down will may have a major effect on the mechanics of your draw. When someone is charging you your mind is beating you over the head to get your hands in front of you. This will become even more evident as they produce weapons. You can have your training partner change out weapon. If they are charging you and you don't see a weapon, do you necessarily want draw your gun?
    Thanks for this, I plan to start working with this setup and building from it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Mercop,

    Why did you wear your t-shirt out rather than tucked in?

    - Janq
    I'm the same way, Unless I'm at work I never have a shirt tucked in. All mine go un-tunked, which is why I train with an un-tucked shirt.
    | Type 01 FFL / SOT |
    | NC CHP Instructor | NRA Pistol Instructor |

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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    I mean the off duty cop uniform is an untucked polo shirt.

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    Thumbs up

    Good worthwhile thread mercop.

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Understood.
    I was just curious is all.
    Definitely you gotta train as you would and do operate.

    BTW very much agreed in regard to Appendix Carry...it is the swiftest mode of carry and draw that I know of. When I'm out at night that is most often my mode of purposeful carry . It works and street criminals run that way too for good and same purposeful reason.

    I roll undershirt tucked with outer shirt untucked.
    If I find myself in an area that requires my outer garments removal, which is rare because I think out my travel points ahead of time, then I'll excuse myself to a restroom or some other secluded area and untuck my inner shirt if style appropriate.

    Looking forward to seeing your video.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Rob Pincus (a member here) did a nice video on the same topic a while back. Its a tough thing to do safely and even tougher to practice. The videos are most helpful, just be careful practicing such things.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    IMO if a person succeeds in getting that close and attacking, I am going be doing more of trying to buy time (inflict injuries on him/her) to make sure I can deploy, not looking for brief moments in their movements.

    IOW I will be hitting, kicking, anything I can to incapacitate the attacker if only momentarily. I will also be doing every thing I can to keep it from becoming a wrestling match.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    just be careful practicing such things.
    Heh, we have all read the stories. I think who ever first molded a training gun was a genius, same goes for the rubber knives, etc.

    This is very good info and for those of us who have had very little, or at least not very recent, tactical training this is great info to have and look in to.

    Hopefully next year will lend itself to more opportunity to take a few classes on topics like this.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

    If you are not willing to stand behind our Troops, feel free to stand in front of them!

    -Paco

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Ditto Sticks.
    Buying distance for me too would be a priority, which may include a full bore sprinting run if I'm physically able.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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