The Inclusive Approach, a Novel Concept!

The Inclusive Approach, a Novel Concept!

This is a discussion on The Inclusive Approach, a Novel Concept! within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; We have the proactive gunfight and we have the reactive gunfight. Each one is very different and require different skill sets in order to be ...

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Thread: The Inclusive Approach, a Novel Concept!

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Roger Phillips's Avatar
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    The Inclusive Approach, a Novel Concept!

    We have the proactive gunfight and we have the reactive gunfight. Each one is very different and require different skill sets in order to be the very best that you can possibly be.

    The proactive gun fight requires "the fundamentals of marksmanship."

    (1) Grip
    (2) Stance
    (3) Sight alignment
    (4) Sight picture
    (5) Trigger control
    (6) Follow through

    Anyone who is not brain dead knows that we all need these skill sets.

    The only gunfight that is better than a proactive gunfight is the gunfight that you completely avoid. But the bottom line is that criminals are not stupid. They usually deselect the aware, they usually move on when they see a challenge. They are usually waiting and watching for the unaware.....the easy marks. They are usually waiting for the opportunity where everything is on their side....where they have the drop on the victim.

    So, the realistic chances of a typical civilian defender, to be in a proactive gunfight, are very low. So the question that has to be asked is why is there such a focus on the proactive gunfight for so many of the instructors out there?

    The reactive gun fight requires "the fundamental concepts of combat shooting."

    (1) A completely versatile dynamic movement draw stroke (which includes the cover garment clearance, acquiring a firing grip, the Pekiti footwork, and the ability to drive the gun to the focal point)

    (2) One handed skill sets that rival your two handed skill sets

    (3) A completely versatile and fluid retention concept

    (4) Well rounded threat focused aiming skill sets

    (5) A movement based shooting platform that takes into consideration the consistent index, the typical physiological response for incoming rounds, and something that facilitates the dynamic movement that is require to dodge the adversaries aim

    (6) Athleticism to be able to explode off of the X with speed and agility. Athleticism that gives you everything that you need to make yourself more difficult to target

    (7) The physical strength and ability to integration H2H skill sets with your handgun skill set. You need to have the strength, the knowledge, and the training to get the adversary/weapon off of you, so you have a chance to get your handgun into the fight.

    I have said this many times and I know that many people disagree with it. But I stand by it.....

    "The fundamentals of marksmanship have next to nothing to do with the fundamentals of combat shooting."

    They are two completely different animals!
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts, formerly know as Sweatnbullets

  2. #2
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
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    Roger +1!

    Shooting To Stop the Threat

    By: Tom Perroni

    If you have ever had any formal defensive Handgun training from a top notch firearms instructor, you probably heard them say, ‘Shoot to Stop the Threat” What do they mean by this? Well the first thing you need to understand is the difference between Target Accuracy and Combat Accuracy.

    1. Target Accuracy= is defined as “any shot that has precision; exactness when it hits a pre defined place on a specific target...” Hitting in the exact center of a target.

    2. Combat Accuracy= is defined as “any shot that significantly affects the targets ability to present a lethal threat.”

    There is a myth in the handgun community. The ONE shot stop myth” is it reasonable to expect a single round to stop the attacker or any danger? This may sound good however we know that this is not a reasonable expectation from a single handgun bullet, especially a handgun bullet. I have a saying ”A handgun is a tool a tool to fight your way back to the long gun or shotgun you should have had if you new you were going to be in a fight. You can read more about this in my article “Handgun Stopping Power”.

    Combat Accuracy has several important key points to remember.

    1. When training with ‘Combat Accuracy” one is not required to shoot the proverbial 2 inch group on a target but instead bullet placement on the upper torso can span the width of the shooters hand. If we are shooting perfect 2 inch groups we are shooting way to slow, taking precision shots or “Target Shooting” One needs to get bullets down range on the target with the goal of prevailing in this gunfight.

    2. Hits anywhere on the target that cause the attacker to stop or disengage are considered “Combat Accurate” If for example your attacker has a knife and he attacks and you are able to get off two rounds that hit him in the pelvic area and he drops the knife and disengages that is ‘combat accurate and you have stopped the threat.

    However you must also have a “Combat Mindset” this is also discussed in a previous article. Shooting to stop the threat means that you continue to stay in the fight by shooting until the threat stops. However realize this may be 10, 15, 20, 25 or even 30 rounds, Getting hits on the target anywhere that will stop the threat or fight. But once the threat stops you must also stop shooting. You may only use force as a last resort especially deadly force. Not stopping once the threat has stopped is using excessive force. You may also only use the amount of force that is REASONABLE AND NECESSARY IN YOUR SITUATION.

    By understanding Combat Accuracy most shooters will be able to shoot faster by not overemphasizing concepts that come from target shooting and therefore prepare themselves to stop threats faster in a real world incident. I know some people will have a hard time with this approach, because you have been taught for decades to go to the range and shoot at the center of a target. You need that gratification that comes from shooting and being able to measure your idea of successes. Also remember that the root word in Gun Fight is Fight. Fights are dynamic and you are moving and your hits will be few. I teach that in a gunfight a 100% shooter becomes a 70% shooter due to stress, tunnel vision and sheer dynamic movement. Understanding the actual goal of each round you are firing makes it clear that you need to be prepared to fire as many rounds as it takes!

    So when you go to the range and practice you’re shooting you need to focus on a few key things. You must present the handgun as quickly as possible I teach the (5) points to the draw at Perroni’s Tactical Training Academy. You need to start shooting as soon as the handgun is on target. This could be as early as step # 3 in the (5) points of the draw. We continue to fire all the way through the draw stroke. “Zipper Method” Placing rounds in the upper torso are in the width of a hand span and also trying for the perfect head shot. Moving to cover and reloading as necessary because we know the average number of rounds fired in a gunfight is 10 and of those 10 rounds only 2 hit the target. (80% miss-rate)

    1. SHOOT as many rounds as necessary to stop the threat.
    2. Move to cover while shooting reload from behind cover. (Get of the X)
    3. Keep Shooting While communicating (for the subject to stop, for someone to call 911, to find out where the subject is.)
    4. Only when the threat stops do you stop shooting!
    5. Handgun goes to low ready; you scan for bad guys (scan 360 degrees).

    Live the way you train, and train the way you live. Because when you are in a fight for your life you will not rise to the occasion you will default to your level of training. (How good was your training?)
    Going to the range and shooting at a piece of paper that is not moving or shooting back while putting perfect holes in a nice group is not training for the fight. While I think accuracy is important you must train to prevail in a real world gunfight. You must shoot to stop the threat! Also always remember:

    "Conflict is inevitable; Combat is an option"

  3. #3
    Member Array Rob Pincus's Avatar
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    Oct 2005
    Good stuff, guys.

    I will add that the definition of Combat Accuracy, which Tom quotes precisely and explained very well, came largely from the need to find a way to get students to understand the difference between the two types of shooting that Roger describes in the original post. Of those two types, very few instructors stress the reactive (or Counter Ambush) shooting before the proactive, so many shooters carry a lot of mechanical baggage when they start getting serious about defensive training.
    Specifically, we needed a definition that got away from "hit the target" and "stop the threat", which were the most common answers to the question "What is your goal for each shot you fire during a fight?"
    The first common answer isn't enough and the second isn't a reasonable expectation for a single pistol round. This is why the definition is what it is.... it answers the question in a comprehensive way.

    For related information, google "Balance of Speed & Precision" or check out the podcast on that topic through the link below.
    Last edited by Rob Pincus; December 8th, 2008 at 04:01 AM.

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  5. #4
    Member Array carver's Avatar
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    Good information here guys. There is one thing I would like to add, and that is this; in a gun fight, your opponent will be shooting back at you. Moving while you shot is your best bet, but are you prepaired to take a hit and still continue, if possible? Training; mindset. Training; mindset. Training............
    How do you train if you don't attend a course? I personally set up two or three targets. Usually one in front, or two. One to left or right, maybe another behind or at 3 or 7 o'clock. Practice: draw, fire, hit as fast as posible while moving to cover if possible. Trying to double tap everything, as you move. How long did that take? How many hits did you get? Were they anywhere near where they needed to be? Would you have survived?
    Y'all be safe now, ya hear!

    The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
    Thomas Jefferson

  6. #5
    Member Array ChiWeiSz's Avatar
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    Yikes - good info. If I thought I might need training before, now I know -- I need to spend much more time in training. Not just target shooting.

    Thank you, thank you for these good thoughts.
    Trying to leave as large a carbon footprint as possible.
    Shivering in the "heat"
    Innocent as doves, wise as serpents, armed like wolves.

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    It also goes to show that it really is easier to do stuff on the offense. Every one of us wants a no-shoot outcome but I feel that too many trainers fail to give their students the tools they need to recognize that it's "go time" instead of hoping in vain for a non-violent solution when they're already in life and death encounter.

    Situational awareness and threat recognition remain the best tools for survival.

  8. #7
    Senior Member Array Roger Phillips's Avatar
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    My courses are very advanced and involved course. I used to take for granted that everyone that enrolled in the course would have solid fundamentals of marksmanship skill sets. As the courses grew and as the student numbers rose, it has become clear that a good number of students did not see the fundamentals of marksmanship as a necessary prerequisite to learning the fundamentals of combat shooting. They have laid down their priorities in a manner that was different from the path that I had taken. My thoughts on this is "who am I to question somebody elses priorities." I have zero idea of their situation.

    At first this concerned me. But they proved to be safe. They had the draw stroke down, they had the manipulations down. They had just never been formally trained in the fundamentals of marksmanship. Being the type of instructor that I am, I saw this as an opportunity to learn. An opportunity to see if the fundamentals of marksmanship were a necessary skill set before the fundamentals of combat shooting.

    The results of these test were astounding to me. These students rocked this extremely difficult course. It has been proven to me over and over and over that the fundamentals of marksmanship have next to nothing to do with the fundamentals of combat shooting. The students can excel to a level that most people believe to be impossible without knowing the fundamentals of marksmanship. They can excel to a level that rivals any of my "solid fundamental" students.

    Now, this does mean that these students still need the fundamentals of marksmanship taught to them and they are told that. Their ability to rock and roll out to seven yards was amazing. But once they needed the sights their lack of training in that skill set did show up.

    So, what I have seen, from my experience is that you can arrive at the same destination without taking the same path.

    As I mentioned before, I get more and more guys that have prioritized their training to take care of the "combat" aspect first, so they come to me. They know that we are not going to be spending a bunch of time on marksmanship, that is simply not my main focus right now. I want to teach people the things that they can not get from every Tom, Dick, and Harry who has a NRA instructor cerificate.

    When these student show up, I have drills in place that show me exactly where they are safety wise, draw stroke wise, manipulations wise, and fundamentals of marksmanship wise. The guys that do not have the formal training in the fundamentals of marksmanship do stand out and I ask them about their training. Once we are clear about the skill level we have in the course we put our focus on the threat and get to work.

    I am telling you all unequivocally, that having the fundamentals of marksmanship down has very little to do with your ability to absolutely excel at dynamic combat shooting, out to seven yards. That is simply facts from my experience of running my PSP course. I give you the fundamentals of combat shooting and it gives you what you need within that context.

    Since my course covers one yard out to twenty five or thirty yards, the people with out the fundamentals of marksmanship do have some trouble at distance. But then again, a lot of people have trouble with a thirty yard shot on the move. Each of these students is advised to take a SI DPS course to get their marksmanship skills where they need to be.
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts, formerly know as Sweatnbullets

  9. #8
    Senior Member Array Roger Phillips's Avatar
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    On Being “Inclusive”

    It is impossible to look at one aspect of the fight without looking at the intertwined skill sets that make up an effective and efficient response to a life threatening encounter. This thread started out being about aiming, but it is impossible to look at effective and efficient forms of aiming without taking into considerations the situational elements. The situational elements have been pretty well laid down in the past. They are as follows;

    Who are you?

    The single most important factor inside of the “situation” equation is YOU! This is the one known variable. This is the one variable that you have complete control of. This is the one variable that has (or should have) received the most thought and preparation.

    What is your mission? What is your strategy? What is your mindset? Who are you to your very core (genetically?) How much experience do you have in violent confrontations? What is your training level? What is your skill level? How old are you? How big or strong are you? What level is your athleticism? What are your strengths and weaknesses? These are all questions that we need to ask ourselves and answer truthfully, without ego. These are the questions that will give you the answer to the most important questions of self defense…..”What do I really need?”

    Position in the Reactionary Curve

    This position is all dictated by who has the initiative and to what extent do they have the initiative. You can be proactive, you can have equal initiative, you can be reactive where you are behind in the reactionary curve, you can be way behind in the reactionary curve, and everything in between. The average time that it takes for someone to react is around .25 of a second. If you are in a truly reactionary mode .25 of a second is really the very best that you can hope for. A quarter second is an eternity in a gun fight. Your position in the reactionary curve has a huge effect on your options during movement, draw stroke, aiming, and grip/trigger.

    Criminals are not stupid. They want what they want and they want it in the easiest manner as possible. They cheat! They lie, deceive, distract, and wait for the perfect opportunity to attack, in order to gain the initiative. They understand initiative and use it to dominate the encounter so they can get what they want as easily as possible. We must understand that we will most likely be behind in the reactionary curve….because if we are not (due to awareness)…..then we will most likely be deselected.


    Distance is key, every aspect of fighting is dictated by distance. It does not matter if it is H2H, knives, guns, artillery, etc, etc distance considerations dictate the best strategy, tactic, and technique. Distance equals time! In a gunfight, distance will dictate whether you have to go “hands on” first, whether you have to concern yourself with retention so that you do not hand your adversary your gun, whether you can go to full extension, or whether you just “Get the heck out of Dodge.” Distance also has a huge effect on your options during movement, draw stroke, aiming, and grip/trigger.

    Criminals use distance to dominate the encounter. They get in close, because they understand that distance equals time also. The less distance, the less time, the more likely that they will get compliance from the victim.

    Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques.

    As we look at these realities, it is plain to see that the focus on the “proactive” gunfight in the past 50+ years was an “exclusive” approach to training. It excluded the fact that we are all different and that we bring different strengths and weaknesses to the table. It excluded the fact that our mission or strategy was very different from that of law enforcement or military application. It worked under the myth that awareness, along with stand and deliver sighted fire was all that you would ever need.

    By being inclusive and understanding that situation is the dictating factor, we can pick and choose the very best strategy, tactics, and techniques for the specific situation. By owning skill sets and concepts that cover the complete fight continuum we are in a much better position to fight the fight… matter what it is. Learn the concepts, work the concepts with the context of the fight in mind, and ingrain the concepts through mental imagery of the situation. When you need the best solution to a specific situation, the response will be there at the subconscious level.

    Be inclusive, understand that everything has its place inside of the fight continuum, work it all taking common sense into consideration. When the pressure is really on, the most logical response will be happening before your conscious mind has even had the chance to have gotten into the fight.

    A quarter second is all the time in the world, if it is your final quarter second. Put in the work to be the very best you can be inside of that quarter second. This goal can not be reached without being inclusive and without putting in the work.
    Roger Phillips Owner of Fight Focused Concepts, formerly know as Sweatnbullets

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