An idea for retention shooting

This is a discussion on An idea for retention shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; i have a question/observation from RSSZ's post. i am kinda new to the 'penetration/over penetration' aspects so allow me a lil room here please. 8-10 ...

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Thread: An idea for retention shooting

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array SOLOLUCKY's Avatar
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    i have a question/observation from RSSZ's post.

    i am kinda new to the 'penetration/over penetration' aspects so allow me a lil room here please.
    8-10 inches seems relatively low to me. assuming a round strikes a bone vs. simple flesh things will vary greatly (i figger) but i'm reasonably thick from years of weightlifting but not 12" thick. maybe i am, i never measured but will a 45 slow down that much in flesh?
    (JHP assumed not hardball)
    maybe i need to research more about penetration of rounds and the way a bullet acts in flesh & bone.
    i too carry predominantly a 3" 45 and am not convinced that velocities vary that much from a 3" to a 5" model. especially at point blank range.

    not intending to throw stones just looking at the great POWER of a 45 defensive round it seems it'd punch thru a lotta body.
    R1

    This is mine. That is yours.

    Lets keep it that way.

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  3. #17
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    Bone is always going to be a problem - the sternum can IMO slow a bullet dramatically - in particular the upper part which is bony as against xyphisternum at lowest part.

    Equally ribs, where bony can certainly slow and also deflect - the central part either side of sternum is cartilage and will not have so much effect.

    Re penetration from side shots - a solid hit on the humerous or even shoulder joint itself will take up a lot of energy and probably often compromize rib cage penetration.

    The ''ideal'' penetration is -''enough but not too much'' - so we have no follow thru and thus dangers beyond target. This ideal tho is not feasable and so on balance we need adequate average penetration with, we hope, enough HP bullet upset to actually do damage once ''inside'' - and stop there.

    It will not only be the energy that matters per se but also the particular ballistic coefficient - in theory at least for a given energy, increased cross-sectional area will absorb energy quicker even if hole is larger! This is perhaps why 9mm FMJ has a bad rep' for over penetration.

    The bottom line is obviously - effects on vital structures and as some medics will state - they cannot tell easily between a 9mm hole and a 45 hole!

    In theory to me - penetration need not be thru and thru - or totally deep - the structures we need to affect are much more ''mid cavity'' anyways. I would rather feel I had a round that will do what is needed if it hits right and stay in there - and that would hopefully see some expansion tho clothing will almost always influence that, as well as just velocity vs bullet characteristics.

    Whole thing is a huge field - not to mention can'o'worms!
    Chris - P95
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    I figure if it goes 12" +or -in ballistic gelatin then thats close enough since that will help some what with tougher muscle and possibly bone ..

  5. #19
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    One thing that keeps cropping up - re the mythical ''one shot stop'' - is that big holes and blood loss matter. Well they do of course but in so many cases, even a heart or aorta shot - will still leave a BG vital seconds in which to keep shooting - possibly. Sure he may well be guaranteed to stop and expire but - that ''window of opportunity'' for continued attack is pretty worrysome.

    The actual success in hitting a CNS area - and achieving shut-down is slim but - one reason why multiple shots are almost certainly likely to be needed is their potential effect as singularities and then cumulatively - not so much on the internals but on the BG himself - unless doped (we have been discussing that).

    I think one thing we should all be mindful of is, that the handgun is not par excellence a ''stopper'' in many cases - not like a HV rifle. Thus the probablility of multiple hits being needed is high. The ''bone aspect'' again here is significant IMO.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    Indeed,the slower than grass growin' pistol bullets that are used do not have alot of hydrastatic shock. Especially the heavy ones outta the short bbl weapons. But think about this. What's a bullet that penetrates to only 9 or 10 inches gonna come in contact with. How deep are the vital organs? Yeah,you hit a big ol' guy on the sternum and it probably wont make it through to break his back. SO ! Talking high velocity rifles,in the terminal velocity end of it, there is a thing that occurs called secondary missles. Anything that a bullet entering the body comes in contact with will be propeled at the same velocity as the bullet. Granted,not for any substantial duration. But all these pieces of bones(say sternum)that are broken off by the bullet will become secondary missles. I haven't dressed any humans,but I have, allot of game animals. From moose and bear,down to squirrels. All these animals have definate signs of secondary missle damage. Sometimes far worse that the damage that the bullet does. I dressed a deer one time that was shot with a .22-250. The "sport" shot the deer while it was looking right at him. The bullet completely fragmented(blew up) on the sternum.....BUT.....fragments of bone completely shredded both lungs and the heart. Their again,granted this was a hyper velocity bullet but I feel that even a pistol bullet will do this to a lesser degree in a human body. Whatdaya think ?? -------

  7. #21
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    Secondary damage is I am sure a possibility - but much less with handgun cal's. There is much less ''explosive'' disruptive effect in low vel bullets.

    The whole ''science'' of wounding is both complex and extremely contraversial - but our job should we have to deal with it, is probably just going to be fast action, controlled and accurate and an element of luck on our side too!

    I sure hope not to have to put it to the test
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    P95, To your point I say, HELL YEAH ! Choose a reasonably well made weapon,shooting a reasonably well made bullet,and the rest will be training to put them little pills where you want them to go,as many as you want to go their. Does anybody really know what a bullet does when it enters a human body? Hell no. Way too many variables. We all just do the best we can. To those that carry a .380 as primary CC weapon,I say good on ya. Same as those that carry a .500S&W.---------

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