An idea for retention shooting

This is a discussion on An idea for retention shooting within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; One of my two plans for practice drills to pay more attention to this year is shooting from close retention - then too will be ...

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Thread: An idea for retention shooting

  1. #1
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    An idea for retention shooting

    One of my two plans for practice drills to pay more attention to this year is shooting from close retention - then too will be much more shooting on the move.

    Thinking of the retention aspect, it occurs to me that a useful accessory could be what is in effect a pattern board/target, as we might use for shotguns.

    A std 37 would probably do but I want to stretch range a bit and so a 4' x 4' sheet with a center mark seems like it might be useful. Mainly because if grip, general technique etc is a bit sloppy, I want to see where I hit, and I expect shots to vere laterally just as much as in elevation.

    In fact this could also be useful for on-the-move tho of course, ''cheating'' somewhat because bigger than man size.

    Prime reason is - registering wide hits - nothing more frustrating that knowing you have missed but no idea where! Once things zoned in enough to be consistent then switch back to 37's or similar.
    Chris - P95
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    Distinguished Member Array jarhead79's Avatar
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    Sorry to be a dummy, but what's "retention shooting"???
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    Quote Originally Posted by jarhead79
    Sorry to be a dummy, but what's "retention shooting"???
    Holding the pistol close to your body to "retain" posession in a scuffle...you want to prevent the bad guy from grabbing your weapon while still allowing yourself the opportunity to use it.
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team American
    Holding the pistol close to your body to "retain" posession in a scuffle...you want to prevent the bad guy from grabbing your weapon while still allowing yourself the opportunity to use it.
    Ha, you BG is naked. I have a Delta target that I do similar drills on. I found firing from retention at diatance , usually my elevation is off more than lft-rt.

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    Jar - the purpose of retention is keeping gun in so tight to self that a grab is made way more difficult, much as TA mentions.

    It is, par excellence, for very close quarters but, if time is down to the micro second with a draw then the first opportunity to get off a shot is what I might for convenience call stage #1 retention.

    That is where gun is free of the leather and the strong hand has brought it up to a horizontal position close to body, pretty much as we see in the pic. The time to get from here to both arms out for a first shot is finite and possibly significant thus useful to be able to make a useful shot or two from here.

    What I might call stage#2 retention is when we have a two handed grip on the gun but again keep it tight to body - this time central - from which position arms can be brought up and fwd for a rapid aquisition of a sighted shot. This retention is somewhat more a ''ready'' position and something we might use to cover someone, but that aside again, useful to be able to get hits from here.

    This is all about muscle memory really, and because misses can be quite wide in elevation or windage, this is why I considered a huge target to better register the bad misses.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky
    Ha, you BG is naked.
    He also has a tummy ache

    We have to be prepared for anything...even being attacked by a naked, pale, zombie-lookin' dummy with no arms

    Seriously, firing from this position with my USP 40 compact, recoil is suprisingly sharp...wrist and elbow absorb it all, plus the muzzle blast is felt on the face a whole lot more!
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

    "They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper

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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry

    What I might call stage#2 retention is when we have a two handed grip on the gun but again keep it tight to body - this time central - from which position arms can be brought up and fwd for a rapid aquisition of a sighted shot. This retention is somewhat more a ''ready'' position and something we might use to cover someone, but that aside again, useful to be able to get hits from here.
    Chris, there is a good photo showing this position on mzmtg's thread in this forum titled "A fine Sunday afternoon"....in the first photo, he is holding two-handed close to the body, and in the second photo, pistol is extended along the sight line. Shots can be fired from anywhere in this hold.
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

    "They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper

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    Thx Rick - yes remember that one
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    Senior Member Array mzmtg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team American
    Chris, there is a good photo showing this position on mzmtg's thread in this forum titled "A fine Sunday afternoon"....in the first photo, he is holding two-handed close to the body, and in the second photo, pistol is extended along the sight line. Shots can be fired from anywhere in this hold.
    I am going to work more on shooting from close to the body after that class. I did a couple of drills at contact with the target, like the pic posted above.

    I need to work on shots varying from the moment the support hand hits the gun all the way out to full extension...and back.

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    I refer to the position show as the '2' and the hands meeting on centerline position as '3'. It's a really super-secret code for describing my drawstroke. Count '1' is establishing grip in the holster and '4' is extended at eye level.

    By relating the various shooting positions directly to drawstroke, I find it easier to get people to think about shooting throughout drawstroke and not get stuck on the idea of rigid, stacotto, positions that you have to attain.

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    I try to hold the weapon high to my right upper chest, both hands on the gun, barrel slightly canted to the right. This directs the extracting case away from my face. I keep a two hand grip on the weapon in case the BG tries a grab, in which case it's a lot simpler to merely twist the torso in the opposite direction from the grab. This has the added benefit of projecting one of my elbows into the BG for an elbow "strike."

    Be aware the putting your muzzle against the skin of a BG will likely have two effects: First, it will cause the flesh to avulse from the muzzle blast and it will tend to look like you used a 12 ga at point blank range. The downside to this happy vision is that the flesh may actually get enmeshed in the gun's action and cause a jam. Very messy. I got this little tidbit of info from Mas Ayoob, and I can't verify any actual occurences of this happening, but it seems logical to me and it's something to think about.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    We practice retention shooting here---BUT---we ALWAYS have a buddy standing directly in back of us that does nothing but monitor the direction of the muzzle. The shooters safety man keeps his hand on your back at all times. It seems to be real easy to unintentionally cross in front of your muzzle with your hand/arm,thigh,or even shoulder. We practice "what to do"drills with a red gun quite a bit. This,realizing that if in dire starits you would go ahead and shoot the BG. -------

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    Idpa?

    Quote Originally Posted by RSSZ
    We practice retention shooting here---BUT---we ALWAYS have a buddy standing directly in back of us that does nothing but monitor the direction of the muzzle. The shooters safety man keeps his hand on your back at all times. It seems to be real easy to unintentionally cross in front of your muzzle with your hand/arm,thigh,or even shoulder. We practice "what to do"drills with a red gun quite a bit. This,realizing that if in dire straits you would go ahead and shoot the BG. -------
    Interesting. We do retention scenarios (not drills per se) wherein the scene might be your elevator opens in the sub floor of the parking garage and the BG is right there! He jams the door open and you have to solve the problem. The target stand will be situated about two feet from the shooter. There will be a box spray painted on the ground to simulate the elevator. Standing behind the shooter is the score keeper to watch for procedurals and record the final score, the S.O. watches the safety situation, but is specifically forbidden to touch the shooter unless it is to freeze him for a safety issue. Is that the case for your club? Does your club have a website? Mine is: http://www.tssa.net and there is a gallery on site.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Ex, We are not a club per se. We are just some retired military guys that get together twice a week for some REAL LIFE training. Most of us are over 50(as I am)but we train pretty hard. We still have our "roll-o-dex" full of names that we can use for info purposes and support also. We want to be as street savy as possible. We are not the "Rambo" type but we train to win. One of our mutual friends is a retired SAS officer and we have adopted his creedo. We all truly believe.... "WHO DARES WINS". ---------

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    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    To me,retention type shooting is all about using a bullet that you feel will not overpenetrate. I am a short bbl .45ACP shooter/CCer. I would much rather carry a bullet that would (probably)under penetrate than over penetrate.(although,I'm not sure that you would have to be too concerned about that with a .45ACP,especially a 3" bbl'ed weapon) The "magic" penetration depth's that have been thrown out on this and other forums don't really concern me much. It's not that I would dispute them. I just don't know if it really matters if the BG that I'm fighting gets hit 2 or 3 times and my bullet only penetrates to a depth of 8or9 inches vs a foot. I understand that I might have to hit him through the bicep when he is turned sideways to me....BUT....where will the other 2 or 3(or more) bullets go? I understand that this will not be consistant with some of your beliefs,but that is my "take" on it. --------

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