21 Foot Rule

21 Foot Rule

This is a discussion on 21 Foot Rule within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey guys and gals, I have seen several videos posted on here in the last year showing how someone can attack you and cover 21" ...

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Thread: 21 Foot Rule

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array deadeye72's Avatar
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    21 Foot Rule

    Hey guys and gals,

    I have seen several videos posted on here in the last year showing how someone can attack you and cover 21" extremely fast. I am in a training class right now and would love to show some of these videos to my instructors and classmates. It would be a great help if some of you could link me to these videos. I tried doing a search, but came up empty and would like to have them in the next day or two, while we are covering defensive tactics. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
    Glock 27
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  2. #2
    Member Array Randy's Avatar
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    Set the demonstration up and execute it with your classmates. It's much more convincing than a video *and* you'll learn first-hand that drawing and shooting isn't always the best first option.

    If videos are all you will be able to present, search for "Tueller Drill".

    Randy

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array deadeye72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy View Post
    Set the demonstration up and execute it with your classmates. It's much more convincing than a video *and* you'll learn first-hand that drawing and shooting isn't always the best first option.

    If videos are all you will be able to present, search for "Tueller Drill".

    Randy
    Thanks Randy. I could not remember the name of the drill. My problem is, our classroom is too small to set up such a drill. My biggest concern is the fact that in the class, which is a basic jailers class, they teach you to keep a 4" to 6" distance from inmates that may be a problem. Some of my classmates seem to think that this is plenty of distance to react to any situation that may arise. I understand that in our situations in the facility that we will be unable to keep much more, if any, more distance than that from inmates, but to have the mindset that that is more than enough distance is just plain dangerous. I will not be working with most of these people, but they are my brothers and sisters and I would be heartbroken if anything happened to any of them because they were unprepared.
    Glock 27
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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Sorry, but I have to say this...... "don't be anal about it". Some people will get out a tape measure and go out and measure what 21 ft is.....

    Know how good YOUR reaction time is, and what distance is right for you..... it's different for everyone. A general rule is just that, a generalized rule. The idea is to realize they can cover a good distance quickly. If I don't like a situation.... I don't want them coming within 50 ft.....

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    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Sorry, but I have to say this...... "don't be anal about it". Some people will get out a tape measure and go out and measure what 21 ft is.....

    Know how good YOUR reaction time is, and what distance is right for you..... it's different for everyone. A general rule is just that, a generalized rule. The idea is to realize they can cover a good distance quickly. If I don't like a situation.... I don't want them coming within 50 ft.....
    +1

    I couldn't have said that better myself!
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    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Our local mod for the drill is to have the runner drop a stick, book, etc when they hear the shot to mark the spot they were. Hard to stop on a dime when you are sprinting.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

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    Member Array Klaatu's Avatar
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    If classmates think 4 - 6 feet is a safe distance, try some experiments. Instead of a practice shank, use a big, fat, red magic marker. You might want to do this in t-shirts though. Some folks may not appreciate a foot or two of red marker across a nice shirt. The message should become clear though. Visuals help.

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    Member Array Rob Pincus's Avatar
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    Eagleks,

    That post was a very elegant and friendly one... and I support it.

    Critical thinking skills are more important than memorized dogma without context.

    :-)

    -RJP

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    Member Array steve2267's Avatar
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    For variation, have the attacker let out a blood curling scream, or New York variation of "Mother Frakker" as he launches himself at the defender. This works especially well if you get the defender to relax, or ask them a question to distract them, right before the attacker hits the "go" button. Nothing like a little startle response to emphasize how quickly distance can be eaten up.

    If you run the drill with airsoft pistols, or sims, having the defender start with hand on holstered sidearm, hands at side or some other at rest or interview position both concealed and unconcealed will reveal some interesting results.

    IMHO, the value of the Tueller Drill is in revealing how dangerous someone with a blade can truly be, and how important it is to not let down your guard.

    Generally speaking, movement is necessary to avoid the onward rushing assailant. Some shooting techniques may also blunt the assault, but you should still be prepared to move.

    But, as others have pointed out, don't take the 21' distance to be dogmatic gospel. Some people may not be safe @ 35' etc. etc.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array deadeye72's Avatar
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    I am not really worried about the 21" distance demonstrated in that drill. Our problem in this class is that we are very limited on time, so setting up any kind of practical drills to demonstrate this would be almost impossible. The videos were rather short and could be shown while we were standing around on one of our breaks. I am not concerned about me, I go to work every day with the same mindset and awareness that I always have. I don't trust anyone and everyone is a potential threat. I would just like for some of my classmates to see that being comfortable with a 4' to 6' distance from an inmate is dangerous.
    Glock 27
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    Member Array Klaatu's Avatar
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    A training class without demonstrations and drills? I feel your pain.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array deadeye72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaatu View Post
    A training class without demonstrations and drills? I feel your pain.
    It is only a 12 day class that has to cover everything from booking them in, medical, psychiatric, legal issues, defensive tactics (only 4 hours and did not think of the distance issue until we had completed that), etc. I had no idea when I got this job exactly how much would be involved. I like it and it is a wonderful learning experience for when I hopefully get the chance to go through the academy to get on the road. I think that every new LEO should be required to work in the jail for at least 2 weeks before they are assigned to the road.
    Glock 27
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  13. #13
    Member Array 7677's Avatar
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    The Tueller Drill…sometimes good ideas get lost in fame. The Tueller drill was designed to show officers that a suspect with a knife that was within 21 feet of them was deadly threat and that officers should have their weapon drawn in these situations. The Tueller drill also demonstrated that if an officer did what they were previously taught to do…stand and attempt to speed draw the suspect with the knife would be able to get to them before they could draw and fire.

    The problem I currently see is when doing the drill the shooter is ready for the drill and moves the second the suspect moves and suspects then tracks the shooter. The object of the drill is to teach shooter how to counter a suspect with a knife. The way I was taught was to allow the suspect to close just like they would in a real situation and when he gets to about 10 feet from you sprint forward at approximately 45 degree. You make a conscience thought to move your feet first and then draw your weapon. You should pass the suspect just out of arms reach even if they attempt to track you. Your draw should be accomplished prior to passing the suspect and you shoot them just before and as they pass and if you miss by some chance, you circle around behind them.

    However, reality says that most incident do not include knife wheeling chargers from a distance. Those that want something from you are not going to banish their knife at 21 feet especially the lazy out of shape felons. It then becomes a contest of who is faster.

    The real threat is when a person with a knife gets in close. There are usually two venues the knife is out and you don’t see it or the knife is drawn when in close. Things do not happen in a vacuum and bad guys with knives and guns do not suddenly appear. This is the reason why situational awareness and threat identification are so important.

    Most encounters include the suspect wanting something and/or indicating both verbal and non-verbal indicators that they want to cause you harm. The rule to remember is if they can hit you, they can stab you …so distance is your friend.

    If it is a robbery at knifepoint, then they will instruct you to do things and it is at this point you have the opportunity to counter the suspect with H2H techniques or drawing your firearm and shooting them. Bullets do not instantly stop determined suspects so be prepared to fire until they drop and to employ H2H and move while you firing to keep them from stabbing you.

    It is hard to counter someone that wants to simply kill you. Especially if they make it close with the knife drawn and undetected. This will most likely, resemble a prison shanking. The only real counter once it has begun is H2H techniques.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    The issue with using the 21 foot drill is that most of the time it is all gun guys involved, usually the same crew that says something along the lines of not bringing a knife to a gun fight. A knife in your chest always beats the gun in your holster. What you should take away from the drill is that even at 21 feet you will likely need to deal with the threat open handed, at least initially. This is even more evident if you don't let the defender see before hand whether or not the attacker has a knife or not. This almost guarantees that the initial response will be open handed.

    In the real world we deal with people at conversational distances of 3-5 feet, not 21 feet. This is where I think people take the drill out of context.

    If someone is serious about this stuff it means your skill sets include open hand, stick, knife and firearms. Both the offense and the defense.- George

  15. #15
    Member Array Erik's Avatar
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    "Any help will be greatly appreciated."

    I advise not teaching the "21 foot rule," instead teaching them to articulate threat indicators and their perceptions of the need to use force under Graham v. Connor. Teach them to understand, with an emphasis on why: "was the action reasonable and why?" To answer why they have to be able to articulate threat indicators. Which means that you have to teach them is they don't already know.

    This can be accomplished a variety of ways, but at the minimum instructor-on-instructor demonstration should reinforce the material.

    Best,
    Erik
    God, country, family.

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