Sightless at Rio Salado After Action Review

Sightless at Rio Salado After Action Review

This is a discussion on Sightless at Rio Salado After Action Review within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know that a number of you have expressed some interest in the materials that Brownie (aka AzQkr) teaches. I have the good fortune of ...

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Thread: Sightless at Rio Salado After Action Review

  1. #1
    Member Array steve2267's Avatar
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    Sightless at Rio Salado After Action Review

    I know that a number of you have expressed some interest in the materials that Brownie (aka AzQkr) teaches. I have the good fortune of counting Brownie not only as a good personal friend, but as a mentor as well.

    I recently attended Sightless at Rio Salado (outside Phoenix) this past weekend. Here is an AAR I have written about it.

    (Disclaimer: I have the good fortune of not only counting Brownie, 7677, and Matt Temkin as good friends, but also as my mentors. I attended Sightless at Rio Salado as both a co-instructor and a student. As a student, because when one is in the presense of Matt, Brownie, and 7677, pretty much everyone is a student, and I am still learning FSA combatives, as well as the finer points of how to teach FSA pointshooting. As a co-instructor because Brownie has previously certified myself as a Handgun Quick Kill instructor and because these three have taken me under their collective wing to train me up as an instructor in all the materials. I only hope I can teach others as well as they have taught me.)


    My formal introduction to unsighted fire (I.e. pointshooting) a few years back at the three day Sightless at Tucson by Brownie, Matt Temkin, and 7677 left me overwhelmed. The proverbial drinking from a firehose left my brain trying to comprehend and remember everything I had been taught then. This year at Rio Salado, these three gentleman covered more material in only two days:

    • FSA pointshooting
      • including point shoulder
      • Ύ hip
      • ½ hip;
    • Dynamic Movement
      • integration with FSA pointshooting
        • ½ hip
        • vertical lift
      • getting out of the kill zone
      • attacking the ambush
    • handgun Quick Kill
      • including two handed QK
      • one handed QK
      • QK half hip
      • instantaneous return fire to the rear
      • and Enhanced Peripheral Vision (EPV) ©™
    • Drawing Against The Drop
    • FSA combatives
      • drop step
      • importance of forward drive
      • the three basic strikes
      • basic knife defense
    • Brownie's knife work
      • including knife defense
      • instantaneous knife counter attack
      • offensive knife
      • Brownie's knife work could easily encompass a two day class in it's own right – if you're in the military, police work, or security work, I would highly recommend a two day class by Brownie in knife alone.
    • Airsoft FOF work in the afternoon of day two to tie together and reinforce all the shooting principles learned the first day.


  2. #2
    Member Array steve2267's Avatar
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    Sightless at Rio Salado After Action Review (cont.)


    Matt Temkin and 7677's revised approach to teaching FSA pointshooting avoids some issues he has encountered in the past with students “fighting” the material because it seemed at odds with their experiential knowledge base. His new, improved curriculum actually builds on student's prior shooting experience and training, resulting not only in faster student acceptance of pointshooting, but shorter learning time as well. It seems to me that students at Rio Salado picked up FSA pointshooting in about half the time as at Tucson, with both better skill level and better comprehension of the material. While that may be hard to believe, one fellow, who by his own admission had only shot handguns twice in the previous five years, was easily shooting as well as a former East LA deputy sheriff, an Arizona deputy sheriff, as well as myself – he had the target to prove it!


    7677 has been preaching movement since before time began. Well, not quite. But he has been teaching true dynamic movement since well before it became in vogue in the defensive shooting circles. While some may say that he never espoused dynamic movement, the day I got to spend with him on a range in Denver a couple years ago strongly suggest otherwise – I have seen no one else move as fast as he in the drills he taught me that day. Several months ago, the drills he ran another federal agent and myself through showed that he is one of the true innovators in handgun shooting and tactics. The drills that day taught skills that no one else was (and still aren't) teaching, reaching far beyond merely getting off the X. (Unfortunately, there was not enough time for him to get into all of his truly advanced material this past weekend.)


    Getting back to the class – dovetailing into the end of the basic FSA pointshooting techniques, 7677 taught the group how to integrate FSA pointshooting with movement. Key to this skill is the concept of vertical lift. 7677's effortless demonstration combined with a thorough explanation and watchful eye had everyone shooting while moving in very short order. Movement was combined with ½ hip, as well as discussing when to move, and when not to. Sometimes your best (or only) option may be to shoot your attackers to the ground before they have a chance (I.e. stand and deliver), or maybe a sidestep combined with ½ hip, or to rush your assailant gun blazing. While the military generally calls this last technique assaulting the ambush, when done correctly and on your own, you are, in essence, hiding behind your bullets.


    What is there to say about Brownie? He had everyone shooting two handed Quick Kill within about five minutes. From there we progressed to one handed Quick Kill, multiple targets out to 3-4 yards with Quick Kill half hip, and instantaneous Quick Kill to the rear. While multiple exercises on some 12”x18” steel plates (I.e. the size of the -1 area of an IDPA target) brought everyone up to speed very quickly, one of the highlights of the weekend was Brownie teaching EVERYONE how to hit two targets simultaneously using their Enhanced Peripheral Vision (EPV)©™. This was NOT two handed Quick Kill where you had both hands on one gun, rather this close relative to QK has you firing two guns, one in each hand, simultaneously on two different targets anywhere from a yard apart to many yards apart, and anywhere from a couple yards away to upwards of 7 or more yards away. (We shot the two steel plates, 10 ft apart, at 4 yards distant.) While most of us will not be facing situations where we can carry two handguns at the same time, nor have to shoot two assailants simultaneously, the ability to do so has some very real applications (think holding an intruder in your home at gunpoint when his buddy suddenly appears at a very oblique angle – among others).


    While Brownie's demonstration of the technique was impressive in its own right, what was more impressive was everyone – and I mean EVERYONE – learning and actually performing this skill ON THEIR FIRST TRY. Watching Matt Temkin pick his jaw up off the ground after he shot both targets at the exact same time using EPV on his very first try was priceless! I was even skeptical when I approached the line for my first time... but when you follow the instructions Brownie has developed, and simply do it without thinking... you can't miss. Dual Glocks, dual Beretta 92's, even a 9mm Commander in the left hand and a .45 Commander in the right hand – it didn't matter – everyone hit!


    Oh, I almost forgot... one of the true gems of the weekend was Guantes demonstration of and instruction in Drawing Against The Drop. It's pretty incredible to see the technique demonstrated. When performed correctly, there is nothing your assailant can do to avoid getting shot, while you are safely off his line of fire. (I suppose he could drop his gun, drop to his knees and beg for mercy, but I digress.) While DATD is easily learned, there are some fine points to the technique that make the difference between getting shot yourself, or ending up struggling for a gun versus shooting your assailant to the ground. When someone raised a valid criticism of the technique, 7677 created – on the spot – a slight modification to DATD that easily resolves any such problem. (It was both a kick, and rather humbling when Guantes handed Matt, 7677, Brownie, and myself a well written teaching syllabus for DATD and told us we were the first four instructors “certified” to teach DATD.)


    I don't know what else to add, other than if you learn unsighted fire in the manner in which Brownie, 7677, and Matt Temkin teach it, you will learn life saving skills in very short order – and not skills that replace sighted fire, but skills that complement sighted fire. Pointshooting is very simple. You ALL know how to do it. – you just need to be shown how. These skills work WITH your body's natural reactions to stress, actually take advantage of those reactions, rather than trying to fight them. If someone tries to tell you that pointshooting is complicated, or needless complicate their teaching approach, they either 1) don't know what they are talking about, 2) are lying to you, or 3) are running some marketing schtick to keep you coming back for more. The true greats upon whose shoulders we now walk – Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, Lucky McDaniel – among others – worked this all out a long time ago. Learning these skills via the teaching methods as taught by 7677, Matt Temkin, and Brownie will impart to you life saving skills in short order.

  3. #3
    Member Array SwampRat's Avatar
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    I'm totally ENVIOUS that I couldn't make it out there for this one...They only come along when all you guys get together, twice in the last 4 years. Throw in Guantes showing up and what a wasted opportunity for me...and anyone else who didnt attend. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr..

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Thanks for the kind words, Steve.
    Yes..mentoring is a wonderful thing, and I hope to train more instructors as I continue to get older
    and feebler.
    We may be doing it again this October in VA. ( Still waiting to hear from Tom Perroni on this)
    Hopefully we can do at least one event a year in either Fla or Az during the (cold, NYC) winter.
    Glad you had a good time--and the trip to Tombstone after the class was a blast.
    Last edited by Matthew Temkin; February 27th, 2009 at 08:10 AM.

  5. #5
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    Steve,

    Nicely done. I had a great time training with you, Tom and Matt this last weekend. You've obviously been diligent in your practice since the Sightless in Tucson event in Feb 05 and it showed through all weekend.

    Working with you on Monday with the M1a was also rewarding for me. I didn't expect anything less from you when you whacked that steel gong, going 30 hits for 30 shots after less than an hour on the rifle at 300 yrds. Remember your come ups and how to get your battle sight zero's [ BSZ ] on your own rifle and where to hold that BSZ sight come up at the different yardages and you'll become a true rifleman in no time.

    Keep up the good work. Looking forward to your next trip out here.

    Stay sharp

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  6. #6
    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin View Post
    Hopefully we can do at least one event a year in either Fla or Az during the (cold, NYC) winter.
    Glad you had a good time--and the trip to Tombstone after the class was a blast.
    Sign me up for the next one in AZ. I'll be glad to pay for it NOW!
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    You can't cure stupid, but you can give it a good whoopin to straighten it's thought pattern.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillR View Post
    Sign me up for the next one in AZ. I'll be glad to pay for it NOW!
    Sorry to have missed you, Bill.
    The one police officer from the Suarez class in October 2007 made it to this class, so I hope to see you next year.
    Az is REAL nice in February--and the snowbirds make me feel young!!!

  8. #8
    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin View Post
    Sorry to have missed you, Bill.
    The one police officer from the Suarez class in October 2007 made it to this class, so I hope to see you next year.
    Let me know as soon as you have the dates for next year, and I'll register!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dal1Celt View Post
    You can't cure stupid, but you can give it a good whoopin to straighten it's thought pattern.

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    Steve,
    I thank you for the kind words and it was also good to work with Matt and Brownie again.

    I particularly enjoyed the break time when Brownie, Matt, Steve, and I got to shoot steel.

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    Member Array steve2267's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7677 View Post
    Steve,
    I thank you for the kind words and it was also good to work with Matt and Brownie again.

    I particularly enjoyed the break time when Brownie, Matt, Steve, and I got to shoot steel.
    Watching you and Brownie move and shoot on those two plates was something to behold. One handed, from what - ten yards? From my vantage point behind you and off to your left, your pistols were definitely below line of sight. I lost count of how many mags you two went through, it sounded like someone beating on the steel with a pair of steel drumsticks, and I don't recall many misses -- three, maybe four?

    You covered each other during mag changes really well, moving around the other during mag changes. It seemed like a mad minute, but as fast as you were firing, I don't think you could carry that many rounds on your person for a whole minute!

    Your racket making sure attracted a crowd, though!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by steve2267 View Post
    Watching you and Brownie move and shoot on those two plates was something to behold. One handed, from what - ten yards? From my vantage point behind you and off to your left, your pistols were definitely below line of sight. I lost count of how many mags you two went through, it sounded like someone beating on the steel with a pair of steel drumsticks, and I don't recall many misses -- three, maybe four?

    You covered each other during mag changes really well, moving around the other during mag changes. It seemed like a mad minute, but as fast as you were firing, I don't think you could carry that many rounds on your person for a whole minute!

    Your racket making sure attracted a crowd, though!
    That was one mad 20 seconds with some 116 rounds from 7 Glock mags [ 7677 with 4 g19 mags and my own three G17 mags ] at about 9 yards one handed. I'd also guess 3, maybe 4 misses in all those rounds as well. It sure wasn't many at all.

    It was an adllib moment and I was just working off 7677's lead while he was pouring the rounds on steel It was absolutely the best time I've had shooting my steel plates in the last 20 years of using them. Wish the video camera had been rolling at that time. In all the years I've been shooting, I've never seen anything like it by anyone, but you can bet the next time we get together we're going to do that again.

    From the crowd that had gathered off the sporting clays range we must have sounded like machine guns were being used on that pistol range.

    BillR, I'll keep you up to speed on the next event we schedule out here. Count on it and looking forward to meeting and training with you. We're definately going to be doing this one again out here, and I think putting one on in Fla would not be out of the question either this fall.

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

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    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Spoke with Brownie recently and we may be offering this class again in mid November.
    We first have to check with 7677 for his availability...

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    Member Array BillR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin View Post
    Spoke with Brownie recently and we may be offering this class again in mid November.
    We first have to check with 7677 for his availability...
    In AZ??
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  14. #14
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    It's shaping up to look that way Bill. Prospective dates if 7677 is available would be Nov 14, 15

    Brownie
    The mind is the limiting factor

    Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    It's shaping up to look that way Bill. Prospective dates if 7677 is available would be Nov 14, 15

    Brownie
    I called 7677 and he is.
    I also spoke with Tom Perroni and we are on for mid October in Va.

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