Manual of Arms on a Decocker and Consistent Trigger Pulls

This is a discussion on Manual of Arms on a Decocker and Consistent Trigger Pulls within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My comment to Bud just made me think I may have something else to learn that might not be covered even in a training class... ...

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Thread: Manual of Arms on a Decocker and Consistent Trigger Pulls

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Euclidean's Avatar
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    Manual of Arms on a Decocker and Consistent Trigger Pulls

    My comment to Bud just made me think I may have something else to learn that might not be covered even in a training class... not a complicated thing at all but one I'm curious about now.

    I've found in the course of my travels that I like consistent trigger pulls. I like the first shot to be the same as the last shot. It took me a while to realize it but I have figured out why I like some of the guns I like now, and why I don't like others quite as much.

    The point I'm trying to make in a roundabout way is that I've figured out I don't like it when the first shot is double action and the follow up shots are all single action. I think this is why I'm so intrigued with the CZ 75B: it offers the user a choice between all single action shots, or DA/SA operation.

    The funny thing is, I've discovered that once I got used to it and learned to operate the gun in my sleep, (didn't take too long actually), I began to carry it C&L and I don't really like C&L very much at all. But I am willing to put up with it for a consistent trigger pull from beginning to end.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with my preference, after all, if you carry a DA/SA gun, even if you train very hard with it, most of your practice is single action and not with the shot that's probably going to count the most, the first shot. That's not to say you can't achieve great proficiency with such a gun, just that it's harder, and I'd imagine most people will always be better with the SA shots.

    The point finally emerges: I've been practicing dryfire manipulations of the 220 because it's different from any gun I've had before. However, I always thought the whole point of the SIG decocker design was that it allowed you the best of all worlds depending on the circumstances: if you knew trouble was coming it's a quick matter to cock the hammer, and then if turns out to be nothing, you hit a switch and immediately decock it, and the rest of the time you get the greater inherent safety of an initial double action trigger pull, yet if you had no warning that you needed your sidearm, you still had simple point and fire operation.

    To me, that makes perfectly good sense for a service pistol. If I was an officer having to storm a meth lab in some guy's garage and I knew what I was going into, you better believe I'd go in there ready to shoot. However it if wasn't necessary, decocking the pistol for safe carry so you could say handcuff someone would be instantaneous. But then if the perp tried to pull something, the gun is still usable in a hurry. Does it make sense when I put it that way?

    But I wonder if maybe I might not have missed the point entirely. Even if you knew ahead of time somehow that something bad was going down (for a civilian homeowner this might be going to check that bump in the night), you might not necessarily want to go around with your pistol cocked and I can't think of any group that's trained that way off the top of my head. After all I wouldn't do that with a revolver that'd be a bit foolish... but then again single action shots on a revolver vs a semiauto don't really compare, and there's no quick decocking lever on a revolver.

    At any rate it's not a big issue as I'll stick the much more instinctual XD or double action revolver for my self protection needs, but I wonder if I haven't completely missed the point here.

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    The reason for a Da/sa is for when you really don't wanna fire its well know under stress you will most likely have finger on trigger weather you know it or not there was a test done few
    years ago that proved that.

    Basically for most law enforcement they want a long first trigger pull .. then to single action so if it is go time the gun is a lot easier to shoot accurately after the first shot ..

    Yes you do give some up on the first shot but after that you at a nice single action trigger pull..

    No me personally i don't like the DA/SA i want it one way or the other

    On my Hk i carry it cocked and locked so i don't have the switch

    So either i want it one way or the other

    Like a glock trigger to a sweet 1911 trigger

    As of late i have been shooting all the Wheelies i have been shooting 95% of the time in double action only and i think it is helping my trigger control.

    Hum i can see a 22 Da wheelie coming for even cheeper pratice

  4. #3
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    I prefer SA only but have accomodated DA/SA with practice. I find it now the ideal way to carry, effectively all but con1.

    I am aware that first shot DA is rarely quite as accurate but then for emergencies that difference is minor - in IDPA I am hardly aware any more of the transition from shot #1 to #2 and beyond.

    Also as Euc says - cocking for SA only can often be done if that extra bit of time available - but by and large I do not practice that - I stick to a definite discipline.

    The SIG trigger stroke differences I find more acceptable than the Ruger P series where the difference is gross - but even so I had gotten fairly used to that when P95 saw duty. Familiarity is the key.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    My Particular SIG Technique

    I carry the older European SIG P220s AKA The SIG/Browning BDA .45acp.
    It's identical to the American SIG P220 but it has the Mag Release on the butt. Not a problem for me but, that "butt mag release" makes it impossible to use anything but the standard capacity magazines.
    Anyway...back to my point.
    The older SIG hammer is sharply serrated & very easy to do a "strong/gun hand" Thumb Cock while still keeping the index finger out of the trigger guard.
    That makes it incredibly easy (with proper judicious practice) to take the first shot SA (at any time) if that is either desired or necessary.
    In fact, that is the way I always practice with that pistol & I have done so with that pistol for 20+a~few years.
    That is the way I was first trained to use the SIG/Browning BDA outside of the U.S. where that technique was more common & accepted.
    BTW...I have never had a Negligent Discharge with any handgun or long gun since I started shooting at about Age 8.
    I wish that I had a video camera because I would do it for you.
    Please Note: I NEVER suggest or recommend ANY gun handling or shooting technique to any other shooter that (in any way) deviates from the usual published Standard Domestic Gun Safety Diatribe.
    Also by doing a lightning fast "gun hand grip shift" it's also extremely easy to hit the decock lever (using only the gun hand) to lower the hammer back down to the "Decocked to SAFE" position.
    My suggestion to all shooters that are not willing to get intimately familiar with the firearm that they intend to carry is to (naturally) stick with the trigger system that they feel most comfortable with.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    how about a pic of the Classic 22 with the Heel mag release QK

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    Sure

    No Prob...Give me a while.
    I'll take the pic of my one that still looks right purdy.
    My "Beater SIG" is extremely embarrassing looking & I want to send it out for a super different refinish job... If this one company in Erie, PA. will do it for me.
    I'll need to prep it myself & they will hafta do it while I wait there for it.
    That should be an interesting project 'cause I want to have it done in...get ready....AlTiN Aluminum Titanium Nitride which is NOT a finish that is normally ever put onto firearms.
    Maybe this summer I'll prep it.

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    Distinguished Member Array fed_wif_a_sig's Avatar
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    Interesting comment Chris about the first shot. Before this agency I would have agreeded with you, but at this one, I have been inpressed to see that most are better on their first DA shot than with the 2nd follow up SA shot. I will however continually believe that transitioning from a DA shot to a SA shot takes a lot more practice to master than a simple SA shot.

    However I would personally not cock my hanner on a DA auto, and as trained will de-cock after the assessment for new targest, checking 6, or before moving.

    BTW Chris are you still going to Tulsa for the April fools gun show? If so let me know. I have planned on taking my family back to T'town for the weekend and will go to the show if we get up there.
    Steve
    "Respect all ... Fear none!!!

  9. #8
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    fed - well I guess for me it is that once the DA shot has gone, I ''settle in'' to the SA rhythm..... thus consistency is better perhaps. Could be too of course - another major factor, the first shot whether DA or SA - if just post draw from leather, that is time when rapid sight aquisition and grip may not be as ideal and we automatically then make minor (unconscious usually) adjustment.

    My normal routine does not have me even thinking of cocking hammer but I guess if I was spoiled for time and distance was a factor, then I might have time to consider and actually do a manual cocking.

    Tulsa? Yes all being well we are still on for that - and will be meeting up with Larry Ashcraft and others. I will kick off a thread nearer the time to see who is finally going and we can exchange cell numbers etc - and so try and hook up somehow on the Saturday. Be great.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  10. #9
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    Post The SIG/Browning Decocker

    And the SIG/Browning Operating System

    You do know that if the SIG/Browning hammer is "thumb cocked" to any degree LESS than Full Cock and is then Whoops! "Let Go" at any point during its rearward travel...the hammer is caught by exactly the same method as using the SIG decocking lever to drop the hammer on a chambered round.
    That being said...in 20 years I have never let my thumb slip off the hammer during a Thumb Cock.


    I know that my particular shooting technique is 100% safe for me and the people around me & that is all I care about.
    You KNOW that safety is Priority One Paramount with me.
    It's just that the way that I handle my firearm never was common in these United States.
    Regardless of my particular technique....It would be valuable for any SIG shooter to know that if they ever absolutely need to take a aimed careful "avoid drilling/killing the hostage" shot...that they would be insane to take that double action as VS a thumb cocked single action shot.
    Of course...just my humble opinion on that.

  11. #10
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    I have to admit that looking for consistency I will hand cock the hammer on my SIG at the range. Like Euc said, at the range I'm looking for each shot to be the same. I probably should practice that first shot, we'll see.
    Rick

    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array Tom357's Avatar
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    When I was getting used to my P226, I shot a lot of DA-only, decocking between shots, partly because my CCW qualification required that I shoot all my shots DA. After I got comfortable incorporating decocking as part of my SOP, a lot of my training has involved DA/SA pairs and DA/SA/SA triplets. I agree that DA/SA takes more training than DAO or SA to shoot consistently. The SIG was my platform of choice, and I'd prefer not to add another decision point to my armed response - namely, whether or not to thumb-cock the hammer before my first shot. As it stands, now, I just point and shoot, and I'm as comfortable with my first DA shot as I am with my follow-up SA shots.
    - Tom
    You have the power to donate life.

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Tom's right if your going to carry something like the sig i would do a lot of practice with the first double action shot

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