Instructor Needs Ideas For a Specialized Case.... - Page 2

Instructor Needs Ideas For a Specialized Case....

This is a discussion on Instructor Needs Ideas For a Specialized Case.... within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There have been some disturbing incidents within the last week. Let me give y'all a copy of an e-mail I just sent to my pastor ...

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Thread: Instructor Needs Ideas For a Specialized Case....

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation Update!!!!!

    There have been some disturbing incidents within the last week. Let me give y'all a copy of an e-mail I just sent to my pastor friend:

    Today, I went with my wife to her weekly luncheon at the Cheesecake Factory with all her friends (and mine too) and I was speaking to the husband of one and he comes out and asks me to help him and some other church elders get their concealed weapons permits. I look at him and he explained that last week, the pastor at his church had to leave the pulpit to retrieve something from his office before the service and walked in on the robber!

    The guy confessed he there to do evil, to rob the church. The Pastor thought the guy'd had a change of heart and told him to wait til after the service so they could talk. He closed the door to his office and went back to the pulpit. As the Pastor turned and walked into the Sanctuary, the bad guy caught the door to the office before it shut fully and locked and proceeded to clean out the office. Computer, printer, etc.

    He left a NOTE apologizing and saying that he had the intent to enter the sanctuary and HOLD UP THE CONGREGATION, but would settle for the proceeds from the office.

    Now the Pastor has members of the congregation shadow him wherever he goes in the safety of his own church! That is simply not right, to me.

    Think how much cash a good sized offering brings in! In this case the sum of $20K was mentioned. IN CASH. So this friend of mine and some others (elders I guess) from his church want to get their sheep dog creds and want me to give the class. In this era of worsening economic scenarios, I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea for this to be happening all over the community.

    Maybe you should spread the word to other area pastors that they and a select group of either elders or deacons get their ccw permits. I can do group classes held in church meeting rooms and we can organize group days to go to the range. If people don't own their own handguns suitable for carry, the range where I go rents them for a very nominal fee (one fee covers multiple weapons for a single customer) of about $20. + other range fees. Then folks can make their own decisions about what guns to buy probably at a local gunshow. But the range offers decent prices and they might make group deals. Also, there are some EXCELLENT deals to made ONLINE and I know a local gunsmith that charges a very small fee for doing the FFL (government required) "transfer" paperwork.

    Remember, this guy was after cash and goods.

    But there are a lot of folks out there hurting and maybe wanting to express their sense of RAGE in a violent manner against God's people.

    We ought to remember our duties as shepherds and sheepdogs to protect the flock from the wolves.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array shooterX's Avatar
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    I don't have much to add, I'm not an instructor, however, after reading this I think there are some very sound ideas contained in this thread.

  3. #18
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    The BG who is robbing churches just needs to meet Jesus, and someone in the congregation should arrange the meeting.ASAP.

    For the pastor...multiple revolvers, although I think people can learn to change mags (in a semi) with one hand.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Wow quite a story above. Hope the BG gets caught. Cash offerings need to be locked up or put in a drop safe ASAP.

    A small suggestion. It is fairly easy to modify levers, mag releases, safety's, or weld on a cocking handle... Once you guys have a general idea what will work for your friend, there might be some additional clever things you can come up with. Weld a handle so you can rack the slide without having to squeeze it with your fingers? Modify controls of a J-frame revolver? Think outside the box.

    I like the idea of having 15+ rounds available without reloading. I would see if you can get a G19 and weld a "charging handle" on the slide somewhere to make it easier to operate. 15 rounds is enough (33 round mags too!), small enough to conceal, reliable enough to work, simple enough to operate under stress, and powerfull enough to get the job done. Weld it so that you can still holster it...

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
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    If the flock can carry a 20k nut per week, maybe they can spring for a couple GLOCKS.
    I'm not a lawyer or a LEO, just a pantload with a computer.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Question You'd think so but noooooooooooo

    Quote Originally Posted by ICTsnub View Post
    If the flock can carry a 20k nut per week, maybe they can spring for a couple GLOCKS.
    You'd think huh? Too bad this is Miami FL and there are waaaaaay more sheeple in the flock of God's sheep. I'm thinking that the Glock is a good idea because most of those that I've handled have had fairly easy slides to retract & I'm also thinking that he might benefit from the addition of a LASER. Comments on this "bright idea," folks?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Couple of thoughts:
    Glock 19 with XS sights. Take a file to the "back" (muzzle side)of the rear sight and square it, so that it is at 90* to the slide. It just became a fantastic one-hand-rack.

    Paul Gomez has been playing with the GAP baseplate, with favorable results, so far:
    Total Protection Interactive

    I'm not usually this hard-core, but for this gent, I have to say, "Go Glock, or go home." Nothing else will be cost effective, taking the beating he'll have to dish out to run a gun one-handed.

    Revos are really more complex, especially given his limited reloading ability. A DBM and a kydex holster are the order of the day. Surely a cop in the congregation can get him a used Gen 2/3 trade-in for $250-350...

    Edit to add: I've finally converted, and put CTCs on board. Well worth it, and found on a local shooters' forum as-NIB for $150.


    My step dad was a minister. People have stolen offering plates and Sacrament serviceware. Polite, Professional, Prepared to kill...

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Think how much cash a good sized offering brings in! In this case the sum of $20K was mentioned. IN CASH. So this friend of mine and some others (elders I guess) from his church want to get their sheep dog creds and want me to give the class. In this era of worsening economic scenarios, I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea for this to be happening all over the community.

    We ought to remember our duties as shepherds and sheepdogs to protect the flock from the wolves.
    Ex,

    This must be a VERY large congregation. It only takes a little math to do the ratio between my congregation and the one you mention. Our CASH offering is only between 2-5% of the total dollars received on most Sundays. Now, we take in more than just cash, with most people giving by check, a few with debit cards or electronic funds transfer. But, you are talking $20,000,000 in annual income. That is VERY unusual.

    Regardless, the robbery of the church is still outrageous, and any amount is wrong since it belongs to the church, once given.
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation It has happened AGAIN....

    Quote Originally Posted by miklcolt45 View Post
    Ex,

    This must be a VERY large congregation. It only takes a little math to do the ratio between my congregation and the one you mention. Our CASH offering is only between 2-5% of the total dollars received on most Sundays. Now, we take in more than just cash, with most people giving by check, a few with debit cards or electronic funds transfer. But, you are talking $20,000,000 in annual income. That is VERY unusual.

    Regardless, the robbery of the church is still outrageous, and any amount is wrong since it belongs to the church, once given.
    I just got an email from another friend. Another Church was hit two weeks ago making the one I discovered yesterday #2 in a potential series. I haven't heard anything on the news, either. This is very disturbing. The potential for something catastrophic occurring is very high.

    Miklcolt45: Yes, it is a large congregation with multiple services all jammed full. It's not quite a "Schuller Sized Crystal Cathedral" but the folks who attend tend to be well heeled upper class types. Not only that, but we're also talking a very evangelical group. Committed to service and supporting missionaries all over the world. It's not MY church but I know a number of folks who go there and I have been to several of their services for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is by invitation of friends.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  10. #25
    Member Array Rob Pincus's Avatar
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    ExSoldier,

    Last year, we had a student with only 3 fingers on the one hand he had left who wanted training. We put him through CFS and portions of the Advanced Pistol Handling course which deals with one handed manipulation. He carries a semi-auto and feels quite confident about his ability to run the gun.

    Send me an email and I'll send you a copy of the APH DVD from the training series that covers the 1 handed stuff we teach. You can share it with your student if you feel it is appropriate. Consider it a donation to his church.

    -RJP
    vscrob@msn.com
    Last edited by Rob Pincus; May 26th, 2009 at 09:09 PM.

  11. #26
    Ex Member Array ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    I think a semi auto is out of the question. Consider the issue of loading mags and then of clearing a stoppage. I think those are actions requiring two fully operational hands. He says his left hand is almost useless. I don't know to what extent ALMOST useless is... what percentage. If it's say 80% that might be enough to cradle a revolver for a reload.

    SO! Thoughts?
    These actions can easily be performed one handed.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array KenpoTex's Avatar
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    Blackeagle, First Sgt, and Rob72 nailed it...He needs a Glock outfitted with a rear sight that is conducive to one-handed reloads/malf. clearing. I'd go with the 9mm (17 or 19) for the higher capacity and reduced muzzle-flip (particularly important since he's going to be doing everything one-handed).
    "Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina

    If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.

    Matt K.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation UPDATE!!! As of Sunday 6/09/09

    Okay, I had lunch with the pastor today. I did a little bit of diagnostics before we went to lunch. I have ascertained that there is no way for him to rack the slide on any semi auto, assisted or not.

    I think he's going to be more comfortable with a revolver. I had him practice cradling my M642 in his nonfunctional hand and reload using speed loaders. He was able to do this and with some practice become quite proficient.

    His wife owns a "Lady Smith" in 38sp which she has never fired. That is a fine little gun. In the final analysis, it's what he feels comfortable in using not what I think he should do and thus impose my will on him. That's not how we do things, right? At least it's not how I do business, ever. I have to help my client adapt to the weapon he chooses.

    Now my conundrum is what gun and what barrel length. I'm thinking maybe a Ruger SP101 with a 3 inch barrel and a laser. What say y'all?

    MAYBE even something with a four inch barrel since it's going to be concealed next to him in the motorized chair. More accuracy for sure at longer ranges. With a 4" BBL he could easily keep tight consistent groups at 30 or 40 feet. If you can, post me some pix I can show him?
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    He doesn't have 100% use of his right hand, but more like about 85%-90% and judging from todays exercises, he feels more comfortable with a revolver.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  15. #30
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    Ex, why not 2 revolvers? Both with Crimson Trace. One a snubby and one a 4 inch. Check out the Ruger LCR
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

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