Shooting accurately while on the move - Page 11

Shooting accurately while on the move

This is a discussion on Shooting accurately while on the move within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Blackeagle Says the guy with 1730 posts here. I agree that it's important, but I think paramount is overstating it. 1.51 posts ...

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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Says the guy with 1730 posts here.



    I agree that it's important, but I think paramount is overstating it.
    1.51 posts per day since 2006. I'd post more but I'm out practicing my draw stroke

    The way he pushes that holster through threads and the marketing about how it's that much faster than other holsters to retrieve and get the gun operational would seem to suggest he's either marketing something he doesn't believe in or he feels speed is paramount to the equation here.

    Brownie
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  2. #152
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    The way he pushes that holster through threads and the marketing about how it's that much faster than other holsters to retrieve and get the gun operational would seem to suggest he's either marketing something he doesn't believe in or he feels speed is paramount to the equation here.
    I'm struggling to see how Gabe's marketing of Dale Fricke's holsters is relevant to the discussion at hand.

    Based on this and a couple of earlier remarks in this thread, I think you may be laboring under a misapprehension. I like and respect Gabe, and I enjoyed and learned a lot from his classes, but I necessarily don't take everything he says as gospel. I do agree with him on a lot of stuff (the importance of getting off the X and shooting on the move being prime examples) but I have my disagreements with him too. "Gabe says so" or "Gabe sells this holster" is not going to convince me one way or the other. This is potentially my life and the lives of my loved ones and I'll make up my own mind about how to best defend them, thank you very much.

  3. #153
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    You fail to see the relevance of the mention of a holster he pushes based on it's ability to allow you to draw faster in a thread that's touched on speed of presentation for how many pages when that same person bases a majority of his work on movement skills?

    I'm not trying to convince you of anything in this thread. Those who think having more speed is important rather than less, through diligent practice, are the people who can use that speed to their advantage as others have throughout history.

    If you don't think it's an important skill or don't put as much time in on your presentation as you could, that's fine with me.

    Brownie
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  4. #154
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    You fail to see the relevance of the mention of a holster he pushes based on it's ability to allow you to draw faster in a thread that's touched on speed of presentation for how many pages when that same person bases a majority of his work on movement skills?
    No, I don't see the relevance. Gabe laid out the case for dynamic movement in the classes I took from him. I evaluated it during those classes and at Utah Polite Society events afterwards and made up my mind that this is an exceedingly useful technique. He also laid out the case for appendix carry and showed off one of Dale's holsters. I made my own evaluation and decided that neither appendix carry nor Dale's holster were for me. What does one have to do with the other?

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    If you don't think it's an important skill or don't put as much time in on your presentation as you could, that's fine with me.
    You don't seem to be paying much attention to what I wrote. A few posts back I said that it was important, just not paramount. There are plenty of other skills that I think will benefit me more in a gunfight than shaving a few tenths of a second off my drawstroke.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    No, I don't see the relevance. Gabe laid out the case for dynamic movement in the classes I took from him. I evaluated it during those classes and at Utah Polite Society events afterwards and made up my mind that this is an exceedingly useful technique. He also laid out the case for appendix carry and showed off one of Dale's holsters. I made my own evaluation and decided that neither appendix carry nor Dale's holster were for me. What does one have to do with the other?
    They both involve an increase in speed of presentation [ the holster and practiced draw speed ]. The correlation is "the faster you are on threat with the muzzle, the better your chances of coming out alive"

    One is material oriented, the other is practice oriented.

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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    They both involve an increase in speed of presentation [ the holster and practiced draw speed ]. The correlation is "the faster you are on threat with the muzzle, the better your chances of coming out alive"
    The "What does one have to do with the other?" comment was referring to dynamic movement and Dale's holsters.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    You don't seem to be paying much attention to what I wrote. A few posts back I said that it was important, just not paramount. There are plenty of other skills that I think will benefit me more in a gunfight than shaving a few tenths of a second off my drawstroke.
    I agree with that underlined. If all you have time for is "other skills" and can't afford the time to practice to shave some time, I would have to think you don't put as much importance in the skill as I and others have.

    That's the nature of the beast here. What we each feel is important and what we each feel is worthy of out time spent training.

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  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    The "What does one have to do with the other?" comment was referring to dynamic movement and Dale's holsters.
    Quite a bit according to the infidel warlord. He professes both be used as they give you an advantage [ one for not getting hit and the other for speed of presentation/better access to the firearm ].

    Brownie
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  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Quite a bit according to the infidel warlord. He professes both be used as they give you an advantage [ one for not getting hit and the other for speed of presentation/better access to the firearm ].
    Like I said before, I don't see the relevance. Merely because Gabe likes both doesn't mean they're a package deal. I agree with him on dynamic movement, but I'll stick with my Comp-Tac IWB at 3:30.

  11. #161
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    You can sit here and write retorts all day or you could have taken the time and energy spent in this endeavor to gain some draw speed through practice.
    What makes you think people don't? Strawman #1.

    To suggest a ccw holder should now not concentrate on gaining speed through practice because it takes time to develop seems odd to me as an instructor.
    It seems odd to me too, since no one is saying anything like that. Strawman #2.

    You don't know how much speed you are capable of attaining ultimately until you put the effort into that aspect of the fight.
    Likewise I don't know for a fact that I can't jump as high as Michael Jordan -- but that's the way to bet.

    It's a defeatist attitude to suggest the general population can't be sub one second with some training and practice.
    Rob Leatham has about a 1 second draw/hit speed from concealment. I feel safe in saying that the general population won't get anywhere near that.

  12. #162
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    To suggest a ccw holder should now not concentrate on gaining speed through practice because it takes time to develop seems odd to me as an instructor.
    It seems odd to me too, since no one is saying anything like that. Strawman #2.



    From a previous post of yours:

    You've been doing this for 30-odd years. Well guess what -- it's not realistic for a CCW holder to base his game plan on what he might be able to accomplish after 30 years of practice. The techniques you're going to bet your life on have to be in rapport with what you can do now, or with reasonable practice

    Seems you suggested just that above which I responded to, strawman huh?

    No, you'll likely never jump as high as Jordan but that should not stop you from trying if you are going to play basketball. Likewise, if you are going to carry a gun with the intent of using it to survive on the streets, you should be striving to attain those skills which give you an edge over the adversaries.

    Rob Leatham has about a 1 second draw/hit speed from concealment. I feel safe in saying that the general population won't get anywhere near that.

    Not without a lot of practice, but it's very attainable if people have the dedication to make it so. That the general population doesn't practice at all or very little has no bearing on what they could be capable of if they set about to make it happen.

    Brownie
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  13. #163
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Back on topic.....my answers in bold.

    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    I get Gabe Suarez's emails, and hope to some day attend one of his courses. He is a big advocate of "exploding" off the X, shooting on the move, and the primacy of not getting shot (as opposed to placing primacy on accurately shooting the bad guy, which may result in both of you getting shot if you do not move to avoid incoming fire).

    While this all sounds good to me, I just have one concern - I cannot shoot with any kind of accuracy at anything faster than a "groucho" or "duck walk," since that kind of walking minimizes the up-and-down bouncing that you get with a normal walking or running gait.

    This is simply a training issue. If you do not know how to do this and you would like to know how to do this.....the training is available. These skill sets are a focus of my "Point Shooting Progressions" (PSP) course. There are also a couple of DVDs' that address these skill sets.

    ADVANCED CLOSE RANGE GUNFIGHTING by GABRIEL SUAREZ - ACRG.DVD

    POINT SHOOTING PROGRESSIONS DVD with Roger Phillips *** NEW Release *** - SIS-PHILLIPS-PSP.DVD



    The force-on-force training is done with Airsoft pistols, which have no recoil. So, I wonder if it is possible to shoot accurately while "exploding" off the X with a real pistol, dealing with the recoil, especially if you are shooting one-handed?

    Once again this is simply a training issue. Give me two days and you will be doing what most people believe to be impossible. The Fairbairn & Sykes form of one handed shooting brings people to a very high skill level in a very short amount of time. If you are having a hard time believing this feel free to go over the Warrior Talk forums and veiw hundreds of reveiws of the PSP course.

    Unfortunately, my local range will not allow this type of training for safety reasons, so I cannot easily try it for myself!

    When it comes to making hits with dynamic movement the most difficult shot is the first shot. With this fact in mind, try making the first shot with your airsoft gun. (No recoil.....no problem it is just one shot.)

    I do agree that movement off the X is key, BUT since you are legally responsible for every shot you take, I'm not sure shooting while running full tilt is a wise idea.

    Do you know what the nation wide hit ratio for LEO's is? It is generally accepted that it is 15%-25%. One of the main factors to this low hit ratio is that many people do not train within reality. Reality is that people move because they do not want to get shot. Once you know how to shoot with dynamic movement you are prepared for reality, because you have accepted reality.

    Furthermore, every time I see military or LEOs training to shoot on the move, it is always with a slow, deliberate "groucho" walk - and they usually have the luxury of using long arms, which are easier to aim accurately than handguns. The flip side, of course, is that they are usually wearing body armor and working as a team, so they can perhaps take a hit better than we civilians can - no backup and no body armor.

    You need to understand that the mission between military/LEO is very different from the mission of the typical CCW. This is called "the context of the fight." If you do not understand the context of the fight you need to get yourself into some properly structured FOF so that you can learn the realities of a fight. Once someone has been shot with an airsoft gun, I have not witnessed one of these students decide to stand and deliver while taking hits. Pain and blood tends to teach lessons very quickly. Once you realize that you take a lot less hits with dynamic movement over stand and deliver your world is never the same again. Due to the fact that the draw stroke and the movement happen simultaneously you are just as fast getting hits with dynamic movement as you are from stand and deliver. The idea that movement makes you slower on your draw is just plain incorrect or poor teaching.

    So - thoughts from those who have tried shooting while "exploding" off the X at high speed?

    Read the reveiws of the students that have come before you. Until you listen to the people that have actually been through the training you are listening to people that do not know what they do not know.

  14. #164
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    While this all sounds good to me, I just have one concern - I cannot shoot with any kind of accuracy at anything faster than a "groucho" or "duck walk," since that kind of walking minimizes the up-and-down bouncing that you get with a normal walking or running gait.
    Here you go man,

    Five Elements of Accurate Shooting with Dynamic Movement

    There are five elements that I have found that helps facilitate being able to make hits with dynamic movement with a handgun. They are quite simple, but I am very surprised that before this, they have never been written down before. My definition of accurate is inside of the thoracic cavity.

    Anytime that you have two hands on the gun, while you are moving dynamically, the body mechanics of this will make the handgun bounce more and move side to side more....like a big infinity symbol. With one hand, the gun can "float" better (50% less negative shock input from two separate sides of the body). You will be able to index on to the targeted area much more reliably. The added benefit of the support side arm working as counter balance and stabilizer is another huge asset.

    To test this, try this. From seven yards, with two hands, bring the handgun up to the line of sight, and focus hard on the front sight. Now run towards target and note the amount of movement across the targeted area (infinity pattern). Now try it with one hand with the support side arm held at the chest, note the movement across the targeted area. Now use it one handed with the support side arm used to facilitate smoothing out the firing side arm. This will be a natural swinging motion, but changes slightly due to the direction that you are moving. How to swing the arm is up to you, but remember this quote from Enos, "just pay attention and your body will figure it out."

    You will see that your handgun will have significant less movement across the targeted area. So much so, that you are consistently indexed on to the targeted area at logical distances. This consistent index moves you past the point where you need constant alignment verification. You can now work the trigger as fast as you can and you will make the hits at logical distances.

    The five elements are as follows.

    (1) Absolute confidence in your point shooting skills. You must have solid point shooting skills down to a subconsciously competent level.

    (2) One handed shooting skills that rival your two handed shooting skills. You must be able to shoot very well one handed. Two handed shooting on the run is not nearly as effective or efficient as one handed shooting IMHO (when you are working the trigger as fast as you possibly can.). This is something that is easily proven with the test above.

    (3) A movement based platform that is designed to let you move very quickly (much faster than any form of controlled movement that you may have learned in the past) while mitigating the amount of movement of the gun across the targeted area.

    (4) Elimination of negative visual input. The gun should not be in your line of sight. You should not be able to see the sight alignment. You should only be able to verify that you are indexed on to the targeted area. Having the negative visual input of the gun moving in front of your eyes will slow down your speed on the trigger, your speed of movement and make you hesitate. You need to trust your point shooting skills and know that you are consistently indexed and work that trigger as fast as you can.

    (5) The ability to use the support side hand and arm in a natural manner to stabilize the firing side hand. The support side arm swinging in a manner that counter balances and stabilizes the handgun is a very natural ability. Concentrate on stabilizing the handgun, understand that your support side arm is a key factor in that regard, and do as Enos says "Pay attention and your body will figure it out." This works very much the same way that a cougar or cheetah uses its tail to stabilize and counter balance its dynamic movement. Same exact concept!

    POINT SHOOTING PROGRESSIONS BOOK - SIS-PHILLIPS-BOOK

  15. #165
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Seems you suggested just that above which I responded to, strawman huh?
    That's a laughable non sequitur. My two remarks have nothing to do with each other. Saying that you shouldn't base your current game plan on what you might be able to do 30 years from now and saying "you shouldn't practice" are 100% different.

    Is this sort of cheap wordplay all you really have? Do you have anything to add to this discussion other than a total commitment to quibbling and getting the last word in?

    No, you'll likely never jump as high as Jordan but that should not stop you from trying if you are going to play basketball.
    But it DOES mean you should not plan your entire strategy around being able to do so. You should formulate a game plan around those skills you know you can develop. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

    Not without a lot of practice, but it's very attainable if people have the dedication to make it so. That the general population doesn't practice at all or very little has no bearing on what they could be capable of if they set about to make it happen.
    If you think it is "very attainable" for the general shooting population to reach Leatham levels, I submit that you have a tenuous grip on reality.

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