Shooting accurately while on the move

This is a discussion on Shooting accurately while on the move within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ToddG I look forward to your study when it's published, then. Take a look at some of Gabe Suarez' recent books, or ...

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Thread: Shooting accurately while on the move

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    I look forward to your study when it's published, then.
    Take a look at some of Gabe Suarez' recent books, or Point Shooting Progressions by Roger Phillips.



    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    Then why do so many people who have nearly infinite access to FOF not seem to adopt that approach? I've never worked with an LE agency, SWAT team, or military SOF unit that taught shooting at a full run.
    Because police and military units, particularly at the elite levels, train for proactive gunfights. They know they are going into a fight ahead of time, their weapons are out and ready, on the military side in particular they can engage the enemy as soon as they come into view.

    Civilians, on the other hand, are mostly involved in reactive gunfights. Our first indication that there's a threat may be seeing a BG with a gun. Even if we have really good situational awareness and identify a possible threat before he acts, we still have to wait until he poses an imminent danger before we can even draw our weapon. At best, we will start the fight even with our opponent, at worst we may be way behind the curve.

    Don't assume that the techniques used by SWAT and high speed military units are the be-all end-all when it comes to civilian self defense. We face different problems than they do, and operate under different legal restrictions. Reactive gunfights require a different set of skills and techniques than proactive ones do.

    Quote Originally Posted by ToddG View Post
    My final comment, then I'll let you have the last word: What it all boils down to is who is controlling the tempo and the fight (that's what OODA is all about). If my goal is "don't get hit" I've put that control in the other guy's hands. As soon as I get hit, I've failed. That's a bad mindset. My goal is to end the fight by making him stop. Doing that in the fastest, most efficient, most effective way is my path to success. (and, fwiw, something I've done pretty successfully in FOF, too)
    If you want to control the tempo of the fight, outgoing fire is not the way to do it. People who are hit in gunfights often don't even realize it until the fight is over. If you want to get inside the other guy's OODA loop, you need to move. Disrupt his plan! Don't be where he expects you to be! Don't show him what he expects to see! You can't change the situation faster than he can keep up with if you're just sitting there in one spot.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Time out!

    Fweeep! Everyone to their respective corners! I didn't mean to open a can of worms here...

    Somewhere in the continuum between "stand still/shoot accurately/have a high risk of getting shot"...and... "run like heck/shoot less accurately/have a bit less of a risk of getting shot" is the "right" answer.

    That "right" answer depends a lot on distance to the threat. The closer the threat, the more quickly you need to move, and vice versa.

    For me...I'm not going to be able to move too quickly in a business suit and dress shoes. I've compensated somewhat for the increased risk of getting shot by incorporating body armor into my briefcase. Wearable body armor is just too hot, heavy, uncomfortable...and obvious...for me.

    This may make an interesting FoF, as long as the "attacker" does not know ahead of time that the briefcase is "bullet proof." No armor, moving faster...versus armor, moving somewhat slower.

  4. #33
    Member Array Logan5's Avatar
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    I’m not going to stop and line up resembling two Cowboys in a western shoot out.
    I’m going to move away at an angle and fire.
    Last edited by Logan5; June 3rd, 2009 at 11:54 AM. Reason: typo

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    I get Gabe Suarez's emails, and hope to some day attend one of his courses. He is a big advocate of "exploding" off the X, shooting on the move, and the primacy of not getting shot (as opposed to placing primacy on accurately shooting the bad guy, which may result in both of you getting shot if you do not move to avoid incoming fire).

    While this all sounds good to me, I just have one concern - I cannot shoot with any kind of accuracy at anything faster than a "groucho" or "duck walk," since that kind of walking minimizes the up-and-down bouncing that you get with a normal walking or running gait.

    The force-on-force training is done with Airsoft pistols, which have no recoil. So, I wonder if it is possible to shoot accurately while "exploding" off the X with a real pistol, dealing with the recoil, especially if you are shooting one-handed?

    Unfortunately, my local range will not allow this type of training for safety reasons, so I cannot easily try it for myself!

    I do agree that movement off the X is key, BUT since you are legally responsible for every shot you take, I'm not sure shooting while running full tilt is a wise idea.

    Furthermore, every time I see military or LEOs training to shoot on the move, it is always with a slow, deliberate "groucho" walk - and they usually have the luxury of using long arms, which are easier to aim accurately than handguns. The flip side, of course, is that they are usually wearing body armor and working as a team, so they can perhaps take a hit better than we civilians can - no backup and no body armor.

    So - thoughts from those who have tried shooting while "exploding" off the X at high speed?
    Short answer - Yes. Making good hits on the move is possible at gunfight distances. Did it yesterday at Tactical Response's Fighting Pistol class.

    Long answer - Define "Accuracy"

    Are you trying for hitting the eye socket, or are you going to be happy with moving explosively, not getting shot and taking a chunk out of the attacker as you do?

    I'll take moving out of the line of fire, not getting shot and putting a bullet - even if not a 'perfect shot" - in my attacker as I do it.

    Go take Fighting Pistol from Tactical Response or a similar class from someone else and see that it's not as complex or difficult as you think.

  6. #35
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    Practice, Practice, Practice, :)

    Find a gun forum for your state. It seems all states have at least one. There you will find local instructors. I know I though I was prepared for a self defense situation and to some point I was as long as I did not have to move while I was shooting. I started to take classes and I soon learned how unprepared I was. Having a gun is better then not having a gun in a self defense situation but knowing how to use it is what will save your life. You owe it to everybody around you to train as much as possible.

  7. #36
    Member Array ECHOONE's Avatar
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    I don't think Gabes Tactic's really apply to citizen SD there more to be applied to a military type scenerio not for the common suburban streets, more like if the s__ ever hit the fan sort of thing.Not a bad thing to have under your belt but doubtful you'd ever apply in a SD scenario in a city or rural setting unless you came across a group of terrorists!Granted you have to get off the X in any situation if your taking fire but if you have other innocents around you, you better not be running around like rambo squeezing off rounds.Like they say a time and place for everything!

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    Granted you have to get off the X in any situation if your taking fire but if you have other innocents around you, you better not be running around like rambo squeezing off rounds.Like they say a time and place for everything!
    Your statement reaks of ignorance.

    I guess their is a time and a place for that too.

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Your statement reaks of ignorance.

    I guess their is a time and a place for that too.
    I may be new here, but I've been on other forums for quite some time.

    Let's leave the personal attacks out of it, OK? If you disagree, please do so professionally, and explain why.

    I think the main point was that you need to be careful with your shots when others are around, and if that means slowing down a bit as you move off the X, and taking more careful aim, then that is what you may need to do under the circumstances.

    And by the way...it's spelled "reeks."

    Peace. Out.

  10. #39
    Senior Member Array ASSA9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ECHOONE View Post
    I don't think Gabes Tactic's really apply to citizen SD there more to be applied to a military type scenerio not for the common suburban streets, more like if the s__ ever hit the fan sort of thing.Not a bad thing to have under your belt but doubtful you'd ever apply in a SD scenario in a city or rural setting unless you came across a group of terrorists!Granted you have to get off the X in any situation if your taking fire but if you have other innocents around you, you better not be running around like rambo squeezing off rounds.Like they say a time and place for everything!
    Agreed
    Get your a-- off the X and make his job of hitting you harder.
    and yes, your not Rambo ,spraying bullets is a bad idea.
    As others have said ,in SD you will be behind the curve.
    Trying to out draw someone who is already in attack mode
    is going to be hard to do.
    Return fire if you can but MOVE,preferably to cover.

    Thats my plan,yours may vary.
    Zoe: "Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killing?

    Book: "Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgg9 View Post
    Needless to say I was referring to around 1:20 of:

    YouTube - Miami Vice-'Cry' ending
    Thanks for the Miami Vice link… and remind me to get a tritium briefcase…

  12. #41
    Member Array Gabe Suarez's Avatar
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    Speak of the devil and....well..."Boo".

    Guys...there is no need to make a fight about this. Seriously. The way to fight with a gun should not be a religion. I was a product of the modern technique as taught by Jeff Cooper. Then I began getting into fights as a cop (in various assignements, not all proactive). And I did not do what I was taught to do on the range. Point of fact, if I had, I might very well have been killed.

    So I began to train and teach different stuff. Eventually, with the availability of force on force stuff, we were able to test these theories and prove them.

    Some points - The shooting range is not reality, it is only a simulation of reality. Things that are necessary on the range may not be so, or even desirable, on the street.

    We follow a progression of training. First dry drills to learn mechanical skills. Next is delivery of force at the shooting range so you know how to drive the gun from a combative and not a competitive perspective. Accuracy is adequate combat accuracy. A series of shots inside a 16" circle in 1.2 seconds is better than a series of perfect shots in a 6" circle in 3.0 seconds. At this point it is all theory so we seek to prove those theories via simulated gunfights and the use of force on force.

    That is what we do. We don't have a system, a doctrine, or a style, but rather a series of concepts that we have seen work best at shooting without getting shot, both on the street and in force on force.

    I will post an article that clarifies a little more after this initial post.

    Thanks,

    Gabe Suarez
    http://www.suarezinternational.com

  13. #42
    Member Array Gabe Suarez's Avatar
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    The Swimming Master

    Imagine for a moment if you will, a class of students attentively studying the art of swimming. The instructor, ostensibly an expert swimmer with vast and honorable credentials, certified by the international swimming associations and such, calmly walks up to the class wearing an impeccable gray business suit and begins lecturing on swimming. The environment is totally business-like, clinical, comfortable and dry. the students are clothed in similar business attire to the instructor, doing their very best to emulate him, and notes are being taken as they sip water or coffee.

    The renowned lecturer goes on to describe the need to float, and to move the arms and legs in unison, this way and that. He discusses in passing how to breathe and what water temperature may do to the technique. He discusses warm water and cold water swimming methods, and he shows films of swimmers, and analyzes their techniques.

    Finally, after discussion groups and several written tests, the class understands the concept of swimming.

    Then they retire to their respective swim couches and practice their strokes carefully and incessantly. After a while they very good at this and can whip out a back stroke or breast stroke or even a dog paddle like the expert in class. They are given Swimmer Diplomas and sent out ready to swim, or teach others how to swim....should the need arise.

    Eventually these would-be swimmers begin discussing the merits of pumping the arms more than the feet, or of holding the breath or the theoretical need to get the head up out of the place the water would be, if in fact they were actually swimming in water, in order to breathe. Minutia upon minutia are analyzed and discussed to perfect "the couch swim".

    But the problem is that nobody ever gets into the water. You see, the water is a fearful place. One actually gets wet. "There be dragons" seems to be the attitude. "The water is not safe", some say. Others say that the mere suggestion that one would have to test the Master Swimmer's Theory Of Swimming, by actually swimming, to be a disloyal and unfaithful act.

    “Analytical swimmers do not need to get into the water”, others murmur as they grind through their swim kata every day.

    The discussions on minutia and the unanswered questions persist. Yet if one of them dared to wander into the murky wetness, all the questions that they have spent hours and hours bemusing would be answered in one instant flash of sudden understanding.

    I'll let you in on a secret. It is a dark and ugly secret that has been kept hidden like a national security issue for decades.

    The master swimmer does not, in fact, know how to swim.

    He can teach you the technique for making swimming motions on a safe couch, but he knows nothing of the water. The couch swim doesn't work in a pool, much less in the ocean. His students would drown.

    That is a fact he would kill to keep hidden, because he has invested so much in his teaching methods and technical presentation.
    Quite an illustration isn't it? Much the same can be said for many other things in life from driving, to mating, to actually having to make a living in the “cold cruel world”. One of them is Gun Fighting.

    I get students from range-based schools, and their proponents all the time. These guys and gals have been drilled into the indoctrination of how to stand perfectly, how to draw correctly, and of course, how to carefully use the sights to precisely fire a surgically placed pair into a piece of paper.

    They have spent their training time perfecting their stance, or focusing more on their front sight, or reacting to the first tone of the whistle or tone. Slight changes in holsters, or triggers, or grips, or other incomprehensible irrelevancies filled their study time.

    These things do not last more than the first few minutes of one of our classes.

    Yet, some of our heresy and blasphemies have spread through the cracks into other other’s curricula. Formerly square-range based, they hesitatingly want to put a toe into the water without getting their carefully pressed Royal Robbins tuxedo wet. You see, it is impossible to hide the truth in the age of the internet.

    I have seen them come and draw and fire, then and only then taking a quick single side step so as to give passing lip service to getting off the line of fire, getting off the “X”, without altering their precise sight picture and carefully developed stable platform.

    The open mouth and furrowed brow that results from their failure in force on force is almost uniform.

    If only people would simply get into the water...into the Force on Force crucible, all things would be known immediately like the dripping swimmer who has just completed his first pool workout.

    In a handful of chaotic and often intense seconds, the force on force student knows more about gunfighting than the untested range instructor who has been shooting groups all his life. And in that sudden fearful realization of what combat is really all about, and in how easy it is to still get killed in spite of all your marksmanship skills, your view on things and your focus in training will change. Things will never be the same again.

    Stop being the theoretical dry couch swimmer and jump into the freaking pool. Heck, just think of all the time and money that will be saved once you have the "secret" knowledge that so many are trying to keep from you. Put down your range bag, grab an Airsoft pistol and a training partner and step into the light.

    Gabe Suarez
    http://www.suarezinternational.com

  14. #43
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Howdy Mr. Gabe.

    I've not been to one of your classes, but I do like your analogy, or "story" if you will.

    I believe there is a place for both methods, and I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I think it is important to know how to walk before you run, and know how to crawl before you walk. That is what the square range is compared to the force on force, IMHO.

    BTW: I do intend to take a force on force class that I pay for out of my own pocket in the future, for what it's worth. I was recently at an LFI 1 class, and when we did the video simulator Shoot/Don't Shoot I was slow to shoot, but both times it was commented that I had been "saved by tactics". That to me is the crux of it all.

    You may be an Olympic Class shooter, but it is tactics that wins a gunfight. That and a whole heap of luck, IMHO. Take care sir and stay safe everyone.

    Biker

  15. #44
    njr
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    I just went to a systema seminar a couple weeks ago in toronto. While there, I bought a dvd called "gun point supremacy" with instruction by Col Komarov of the Russian something or other beeg shot department. Anyway, one of the interesting points he was making was also made by the IDPA shooter- constantly move or run and fire when your feet are in the air to minimize up and down shooting. I'll have to watch it again, there were about four points that were really interesting/useful, but I can't remember the other three.

    You might be able to rent the video through goldstarvideo.com
    By the forests, behind the guns/In the streets and in the houses/Between the tanks, by the roadside/At the hands of the men, of the women, of the children/In the cold, in the dark, in hunger....

    Bertolt Brecht, "To The German Soldiers In The East", stanza 9.

  16. #45
    njr
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    That's the neat thing about systema- these guys have been fighting in some of the worst theaters- Afghanistan, Chenya, vs the Russian mob. One of the tactics emphasized is physical flexibility and relaxation in confrontation and not putting your opponents guard up through minimum arm and shoulder movements, when striking, drawing, etc.

    The other neat tactic is how they "change levels", or drop and roll right underneath the aggressors face for example and plant a shot under the jaw, among other tactics. Or stepping off line, pushing/pulling one of the agressors off balance and using them as a shield against the gunman, while you draw and return fire. Or, choice number one, drawing and shooting as you run like hell toward cover.





    The reality of many face to face assaults or robberies is that, assuming your initial awareness had failed, cover will often not be an option. We're probably not talking about the majority of self defense scenarios here, but rather the scenarios which, by definition, you are way behind in right out of the chute. Keep in mind that this technique is not something you'd ever plan to do if you had a choice. It's a way of possibly redeeming a terrible disadvantage. Hence cover is unlikely and you will have to make hard choices about bystanders.[/QUOTE]
    By the forests, behind the guns/In the streets and in the houses/Between the tanks, by the roadside/At the hands of the men, of the women, of the children/In the cold, in the dark, in hunger....

    Bertolt Brecht, "To The German Soldiers In The East", stanza 9.

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