Shooting accurately while on the move - Page 4

Shooting accurately while on the move

This is a discussion on Shooting accurately while on the move within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; For those of us too far away to make use of Mr Suarez's classes, I figure shooting accurately on the move can be learned the ...

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Thread: Shooting accurately while on the move

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    For those of us too far away to make use of Mr Suarez's classes, I figure shooting accurately on the move can be learned the same way we learn to walk with a cup full of hot coffee without getting burned.

    Find a safe place and start doing it.


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    I get Gabe Suarez's emails, and hope to some day attend one of his courses. He is a big advocate of "exploding" off the X, shooting on the move, and the primacy of not getting shot (as opposed to placing primacy on accurately shooting the bad guy, which may result in both of you getting shot if you do not move to avoid incoming fire).

    While this all sounds good to me, I just have one concern - I cannot shoot with any kind of accuracy at anything faster than a "groucho" or "duck walk," since that kind of walking minimizes the up-and-down bouncing that you get with a normal walking or running gait.

    The force-on-force training is done with Airsoft pistols, which have no recoil. So, I wonder if it is possible to shoot accurately while "exploding" off the X with a real pistol, dealing with the recoil, especially if you are shooting one-handed?

    Unfortunately, my local range will not allow this type of training for safety reasons, so I cannot easily try it for myself!

    I do agree that movement off the X is key, BUT since you are legally responsible for every shot you take, I'm not sure shooting while running full tilt is a wise idea.

    Furthermore, every time I see military or LEOs training to shoot on the move, it is always with a slow, deliberate "groucho" walk - and they usually have the luxury of using long arms, which are easier to aim accurately than handguns. The flip side, of course, is that they are usually wearing body armor and working as a team, so they can perhaps take a hit better than we civilians can - no backup and no body armor.

    So - thoughts from those who have tried shooting while "exploding" off the X at high speed?
    I teach it all of the time in my "Point Shooting Progressions" (PSP) course. Out of the hundreds and hundreds of students that I have taught only two did not do extremely well. One guy came in to try to prove me wrong and one guy tried to do it with out following the methodology.

    My new PSP DVD lays down the foundation to be able to do it at an extremely high level. The DVD can be found here. POINT SHOOTING PROGRESSIONS DVD with Roger Phillips *** NEW Release *** - SIS-PHILLIPS-PSP.DVD

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    For those in or around MO there is a Point Shooting Progressions Training in Hallsville MO just north of Columbia June 27 & 28.

    June 27-28, 2009 - Point Shooting Progressions - Hallsville, MO - 090627
    Bill, I'll see you there. Are you going to be able to make dinner on Saturday night?

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    It is generally accepted that the average hit ration of LEO's across the nation is 15%-25%.

    It is my opinion that it is this low due to many departments not "training within reality." Reality is that people do not want to get shot and move dynamically in order to not get shot when they are behind in the reactionary curve. Most of these people have zero training in the reactionary gunfight, dynamic movement.....let alone something as basic and foundational as point shooting.

    What Gabe and the rest of SI does is train within reality. We understand the fact that people move dynamically when behind in the reactionary curve. We teach people how to excel within these situations....instead of sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that these situations do not exist.

  5. #50
    Member Array SwampRat's Avatar
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    How many of us 60 yr old guys are capable of EXPLODING off the X??...I dont know..What I do know, in the classes I hold for CCW applicants, is that very few of them are athletes or even in good enough shape to do all the running, exploding, etc etc etc... I see very few young women or men applying..Even if some older folks or those who might a physical disability are encouraged to do a force on force class, I have to ask in REALITY how effective would they be?...I don't remember every reading where legendary lawmen and gunfighters like Jordan or Bryce ever ran in any direction to avoid getting hit.. A step off line, Speed of draw and accurate hits were critical to their survival..

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampRat View Post
    I don't remember every reading where legendary lawmen and gunfighters like Jordan or Bryce ever ran in any direction to avoid getting hit.. A step off line, Speed of draw and accurate hits were critical to their survival..
    Can you draw and fire and get a COM hit in 0.4 seconds? Probably not, I'm guessing. The problem with looking to people like Jelly Bryce as your role models is, you can't do what they do.

    Your chosen techniques have to be something you can actually do. If age, stiffness, etc make it such that you can "explode" off the X, you can still move to whatever extent is possible.

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampRat View Post
    I don't remember every reading where legendary lawmen and gunfighters like Jordan or Bryce ever ran in any direction to avoid getting hit.. A step off line, Speed of draw and accurate hits were critical to their survival..
    Bryce was an advocate of shooting on the move.

    "Never stand still if you can, always go foreward if you can,and never stop."

    "If the shooting starts,move and fire if you can and fire at the flash or his outline if you can see it.Don't worry about the center get lead into him."

  8. #53
    Member Array SwampRat's Avatar
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    In the Fairbairn and Sykes book "Shooting to Live" the authors stress...Speed, speed, speed..
    "The average shooting affray is a matter of split seconds. If you take much longer than a third of a second to fire your first shot, you will not be the one to tell the newspapers about it. It is literally a matter of the Quick and the Dead..Take your choice"

  9. #54
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampRat View Post
    In the Fairbairn and Sykes book "Shooting to Live" the authors stress...Speed, speed, speed..
    I guarantee you that no CCW holder is going to go from "first awareness of event" to "first hit made" in a 1/3 of a second. The best competitive shooters are nowhere near that mark, and in their case, they know it's coming.

    The reality is, it'll take you well over a second to get your first shot off, more like 2 seconds.

  10. #55
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampRat View Post
    In the Fairbairn and Sykes book "Shooting to Live" the authors stress...Speed, speed, speed..
    They also advocate aiming methods that take care of the fact that "both you and your adversary will most likely be moving."

    How many of us 60 yr old guys are capable of EXPLODING off the X??...
    You would obviously be very surprised. I would say 15% to 20% of my students are over 60. They all work within their capabilities, but they can make the hits with dynamic movement.

  11. #56
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Bryce while exploding off of the X

    Bryce later said, "When I looked into the room there he was, up on his elbows with a gun in both hands, aimed right at me. He was lying on the near side, and the woman was on the other side of him. I jumped to one side, out of the line of fire, grabbed my gun and tore him up."
    "If you root, you die"

  12. #57
    Member Array SwampRat's Avatar
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    I'm not arguing against movement if possible but the force or force training I have seen is very narrow in its possible circumstances. Most fights happen at within that bad breath distance...Time or speed of draw and first one to get metal on meat are critical. If your situational awareness is where it should be less than a second to first shot from concealment is entirely possible or getting caught with your pants down and taking 2 seconds to first shot is more than possible...If your training FoF at 20'..good on you. Whens the last time you heard of an attack at 20'?

    Again, I'm not arguing against it but not all of us nor the majority of people I see in my classes have the ability to explode much less run. Training females and males who are for the most part, out of shape 40-75 yr old civilians who have passed their prime, have past injuries, old age, etc other options have to be presented besides sprinting to one side or another and exploding off the X with some kind of magical 1st Step. If my classes are made up of 20-40 yr old athletic males or females..great but the average civilian doesnt spend endless hours in the gym trying to turn back the hands of time..Teaching them to draw with speed, create time and distance to access their firearm, get hits on the threat while stepping off line at least gives them a chance of winning the fight. Not seeing how fast they can sprint 15 yds at a dead fun while spraying and praying.

  13. #58
    Member Array SwampRat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Bryce while exploding off of the X
    Taking a step to the side is getting off line not the Exploding off the X that you're teaching...

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampRat View Post
    Most fights happen at within that bad breath distance...
    Most fights do happen up close. This is why getting off the X is important. If you just stand there, even some banger who's a piss poor shot is going to be able to hit you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SwampRat View Post
    Time or speed of draw and first one to get metal on meat are critical.
    Real life is not a TV western. Getting the first hit does not provide victory. Unless you destroy a vital part of the central nervous system, handgun bullets can take a long time to incapacitate a determined adversary. The difference between a one and two second draw time is not enough to keep the BG from killing you. I talked about this earlier in the thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    The problem with that is, except for the central nervous system, hits with handgun bullets are not immediately effective. Consider the best possible non-CNS hit, a double tap to the center of the chest with .45 hollowpoints, completely destroying the heart. This will instantaneously stop circulation and drop blood pressure to zero. How quickly will this physically incapacitate someone? Well, even with no blood circulating, the body's tissues still contain enough oxygen to continue conscious, deliberate action for another 10-15 seconds. How many rounds can an assailant put into you in 10-15 seconds if you're just standing there?

    And that's with the best possible non-CNS hit. More realistically, your hits may penetrate other organs or open up major blood vessels and you'll have to wait for them to bleed out. Now we're talking 30 seconds to a minute.

    Real life is not like television. Pistol bullets will not instantaneously physically incapacitate someone. Mortally wounded assailants have killed or injured a lot of people. No matter how fast or accurate, outgoing gunfire alone is not sufficient to keep you from getting killed.
    Quote Originally Posted by SwampRat View Post
    Again, I'm not arguing against it but not all of us nor the majority of people I see in my classes have the ability to explode much less run. Training females and males who are for the most part, out of shape 40-75 yr old civilians who have passed their prime, have past injuries, old age, etc other options have to be presented besides sprinting to one side or another and exploding off the X with some kind of magical 1st Step.
    When I took Gabe's Close Range Gunfighting and Force on Force classes, the profile of the participants was pretty much what you described. There were definitely more people with gray hair than there were without. None of them had any trouble getting off the X. Could they do it as fast as the 20 year old? No. But they could still do it quickly enough for this to be a far better choice than stand and deliver.

  15. #60
    Member Array SwampRat's Avatar
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    I dont think I ever said this is the old west and one shot one kill..lets dont take things out of context. We all know you shoot until their is no longer a threat. I know, BTDT..so lets dont go there. Movement is key, teaching people how to move whether one step or two or whatever obliquely depending on circumstance should be in every instructors curriculum as should some H2H skills. Getting that first step going in the direction you want is going to take anywheres from .80 to 1 sec. Being able to move first then draw. Get the motion started. Thats the step off line I am referring to. Not a sprint at 15yds away. Everything you do will be dictated by distance to the threat and how many there are..If that is what you call Exploding of the X..then we are just arguing semantics here..AT contact distance of 0-5 feet, one step is all its going to take..5-10 ft..2 steps beyond that distance you better be hiding behind that wall of lead. Again, movement is fine and everyone should learn it, but SPEED to the first shot is even more important. Everytime the BG takes a hit that energy slows him down. That first step combined with draw speed, providing you can distract the BG without telegraphing your intentions will help you win the fight. Other times stand and deliver might be your only choice. Again draw speed will be paramount to survival. If I can step off line, draw and fire in less than .80 sec and get 6 rounds off in less than 2 seconds at that 10' distance..I aint running, I'll take my chances.

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