Shooting accurately while on the move

This is a discussion on Shooting accurately while on the move within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by SwampRat Thats the step off line I am referring to. Not a sprint at 15yds away. Everything you do will be dictated ...

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Thread: Shooting accurately while on the move

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampRat View Post
    Thats the step off line I am referring to. Not a sprint at 15yds away. Everything you do will be dictated by distance to the threat and how many there are..If that is what you call Exploding of the X..then we are just arguing semantics here..
    You're the one who keeps bringing up 15 yards. Everyone else here is talking about exploding off the X and shooting on the move as a 3-7 yard technique. Where are you getting 15 yards from?

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  3. #62
    Member Array SwampRat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    You're the one who keeps bringing up 15 yards. Everyone else here is talking about exploding off the X and shooting on the move as a 3-7 yard technique. Where are you getting 15 yards from?
    Well, excuse me 15' then..let me ask this, what is the most likely scenario of one of us facing a bad guy or multiple bad guys?...What is going to be the crime?..its Robbery..be it your wallet, car jacking, home invasion etc..its Robbery..have you ever been mugged..I have. What distance do you think that happened at?...Most robberies on the street or parking lots will happen at bad breath with the BG's weapon already drawn or in your face. Considering the distance of most of these crimes to be 7' or less at what point should we EXPLODE off the X and draw and how effective would that be at contact distance trying run to at an oblique?..Most of these guys are pretty good at reading body language, the first time you even twitch you'll be telegraphing your intentions unless you are very good at distracting or lulling the BG into thinking you are submissive. When is the last time you have heard of anyone getting robbed at 7yds or 21'? I think the FoF training would be much better served at that 0-7' distance, teaching moving in, H2H and draw speed rather than the 10-20' where sprinting off the X is the lesson plan. Been robbed, been stabbed, been cut, had my butt kicked once or twice and a few guns pulled on me in my lifetime..but never at 10-20'...but, that's just me and all this is JMHO and not necessarily right..

  4. #63
    Senior Member Array dgg9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampRat View Post
    Well, excuse me 15' then..let me ask this, what is the most likely scenario of one of us facing a bad guy or multiple bad guys?...What is going to be the crime?..its Robbery.
    Not necessarily. There are more Aggravated Assaults than robberies.

    If someone is already right up on you, that might indicate a different approach (IMO it's less of a "gun problem" the closer the BG is) ...but even so, you still have the same problems afflicting the "stand and deliver" and "one step and fire" approaches as before. If anything, being closer worsens all those problems.

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwampRat View Post
    Well, excuse me 15' then
    There's a bit of difference there.

    Quote Originally Posted by SwampRat View Post
    I think the FoF training would be much better served at that 0-7' distance, teaching moving in, H2H and draw speed rather than the 10-20' where sprinting off the X is the lesson plan.
    We did about half a day at 0-7' feet in Gabe's Force on Force class. A quick draw isn't going to save you at these ranges either. Going hand to hand or doing a disarm is a much better choice than going for a gun. Even when you're that close and going hand to hand, you've still got to start with exploding off the X if you don't want to get hit.

    I posted a long writeup about both Close Range Gunfighting and the FOF class back when I took them. Gabe now teaches an entire class called Zero to Five Feet on this that I'd really like to take.

  6. #65
    Member Array SwampRat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgg9 View Post
    Not necessarily. There are more Aggravated Assaults than robberies.
    Anytime anyone threatens you with a weapon, knife or gun it would be classified as an aggravated assault..the reason they do that, is robbery...If they dont have a weapon its kinda hard to get someone to comply..the intent behind the aggravated assault and the ultimate goal is to take something you have that they want either thru intimidation with the weapon or actual assault with said weapon..damn, now we are arguing semantics.. 99% of the time the aggravated assault charge goes with the robbery charge..Aggravated assault is usually not committed without ulterior motives..most likely robbery if the BG is unknown to us.

  7. #66
    Member Array SwampRat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    There's a bit of difference there.



    We did about half a day at 0-7' feet in Gabe's Force on Force class. A quick draw isn't going to save you at these ranges either. Going hand to hand or doing a disarm is a much better choice than going for a gun. Even when you're that close and going hand to hand, you've still got to start with exploding off the X if you don't want to get hit.

    I posted a long writeup about both Close Range Gunfighting and the FOF class back when I took them. Gabe now teaches an entire class called Zero to Five Feet on this that I'd really like to take.

    I'll stick with my Speed draw, Quick Kill technique. After 25 years of H2H training, I realize I'm getting a little to old to be going H2H for to long with a younger stronger opponent. Time and Distance..creating the distance to utilize the speed..if it aint over in less than 6 seconds..well, I probably am...

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Bryce while exploding off of the X
    I jumped to one side, out of the line of fire, grabbed my gun and tore him up."

    One side step when Bryce entered the room was not exploding off the X. By the way, you are always on the X, you are X, no matter where you are standing. X may move to a new location, but you are always on the X.

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  9. #68
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    Do you know of anyone who is really going to just stand there and trade bullets with someone knowing any one of those bullets could end your life?

    I don't think so. That is why I learned very early on back in my IPSC/USPSA days to shoot accurately while moving quickly. I can't speak for the rest of DC members, but when the lead flies for real, this former Master is gonna be moving real fast to cover if available, shooting all the way. I also promise you won't be able to squeeze a human hair through my you-know-what either. Being able to shoot accurately while moving is a premium skill to have in a gunfight, and I practice it regularly, even while dry-firing.
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    There's a bit of difference there.



    We did about half a day at 0-7' feet in Gabe's Force on Force class. A quick draw isn't going to save you at these ranges either. Going hand to hand or doing a disarm is a much better choice than going for a gun. Even when you're that close and going hand to hand, you've still got to start with exploding off the X if you don't want to get hit.

    I posted a long writeup about both Close Range Gunfighting and the FOF class back when I took them. Gabe now teaches an entire class called Zero to Five Feet on this that I'd really like to take.
    Bryce proved the bolded wrong on several occasions. So did Bill Jordan who was documented as putting a round in a BG before the BG could pull the trigger while muzzling Jordan.

    Draw speed is extremely important. The modern day gunfighters like Bryce. Askins and Jordan didn't practice their draw speed religiously for naught and lived past all of their gunfights. To ignore the past performances [ draw speed with hits ] of those who've proven on the street [ and not in some FoF scenario ] is to ignore the importance of draw speed.

    Draw speed is one of those things those who don't have it, won't practice it enough to be able to use it to their advantage will denigrate this part of the equation, others who have it know there is advantage to draw speed.

    In fact, even the Infidel Warlord who has posted in this thread pushes his appendix rig BECAUSE it gives them a faster draw stroke, and then turns around and writes articles denigrating draw speed as unimportant. Sorta makes me smile at all the contradictory opinions from one source.

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  11. #70
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Draw speed is one of those things those who don't have it, won't practice it enough to be able to use it to their advantage will denigrate this part of the equation, others who have it know there is advantage to draw speed.
    Brownie, it would be helpful if you read what I actually said.

    I never said a quick draw was unimportant, merely that a quick draw alone isn't enough to keep from getting hit.

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Brownie, it would be helpful if you read what I actually said.

    I never said a quick draw was unimportant, merely that a quick draw alone isn't enough to keep from getting hit.
    Actually, you wrote A quick draw isn't going to save you at these ranges either. to which I gave examples to the contrary based on real world experiences.

    I'm not advocating just draw speed is the end all, but it is an important factor and can't be ignored for it's importance. If we take a look at the equation, you can't defend yourself until the gun is operational, and to get it operational, we have to draw the gun. I'm not sure about anyone else, but for me, I'll take my ques from the masters who survived, not the trainers who offer FoF and expouse that exploding off the X is going to be any more relevant than a quick draw stroke getting the gun operational as soon as possible. Movement may be advantageous and it may not be something available based on your location, etc, where you would then bring the other skills like a refined draw stroke into play.

    In fact, the sooner you can get the gun operational, the less distance you'll have moved before your gun barks. Once it barks, hiding behind a wall of bullets would be as advantageous or more so than continuing to run as long as you are getting your hits.

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  13. #72
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    In fact, the sooner you can get the gun operational, the less distance you'll have moved before your gun barks. Once it barks, hiding behind a wall of bullets would be as advantageous or more so than continuing to run.
    I've read too many accounts of gunfights where participants aren't even aware of being shot, much less shot at, to put a whole lot of stock in the "wall of bullets" as cover theory.

    Jordan and Bryce have a lot to teach us, but they were men of truly exceptional shooting skill. For those of us who aren't at that level, I think we need to take their experiences with a grain of salt.

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    I've read too many accounts of gunfights where participants aren't even aware of being shot, much less shot at, to put a whole lot of stock in the "wall of bullets" as cover theory.

    Jordan and Bryce have a lot to teach us, but they were men of truly exceptional shooting skill. For those of us who aren't at that level, I think we need to take their experiences with a grain of salt.
    Which leads me back to what I posted earlier--

    Draw speed is one of those things those who don't have it, won't practice it enough to be able to use it to their advantage will denigrate this part of the equation

    Most people can practice their draw stroke anywhere anytime, it costs nothing but time and effort to get to "that level". Once there, one could certainly use it to their advantage like the other real world masters.

    Taking anything the modern day gunfighters used to survive multiple incidents of gun play where they survived "with a grain of salt" is to ignore the importance of owning that skill.

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  15. #74
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AzQkr View Post
    Most people can practice their draw stroke anywhere anytime, it costs nothing but time and effort to get to "that level". Once there, one could certainly use it to their advantage like the other real world masters.
    Bryce's drawstroke was clocked at 0.4 seconds to the first shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by K. B. Chaffin
    On November 12, 1945, Life Magazine ran an unusual story. It was a photographic study of an FBI agent named Jelly Bryce drawing and firing his .357 Magnum in two-fifths of a second, faster than the human eye can follow. In the pictures Bryce dropped a silver dollar from shoulder height with his right hand then drew with the same hand and shot the coin before it reached his waist
    I would submit that a performance like that is simply beyond the physical abilities of the vast majority of people. No matter how much we practice, we're not going to be able to duplicate that sort of performance. That's what I mean by truly exceptional.

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    Bryce's drawstroke was clocked at 0.4 seconds to the first shot.



    I would submit that a performance like that is simply beyond the physical abilities of the vast majority of people. No matter how much we practice, we're not going to be able to duplicate that sort of performance. That's what I mean by truly exceptional.
    It takes dedication to attain the fastest draw you can muster based on your own physical limitations. Nowhere have I ever seen in print that one requires a .40 draw stroke to have a chance of surviving, as Bryce was known for. If it's beyond the physical abilities of people, it's because they haven't spent the time those men did in attaining the speed.

    We don't practice to be slower on the hits, we practice to be faster on them. Getting the gun operational starts with the draw stroke. The faster the draw the better when confronted and you have to use the firearm, and no less important and a lot more attainable incrementally than the majority of cw carriers in this country who won't be exploding off the X dynamically due to age, disabilities which prevent that movement and many more reasons.

    I would submit that a performance like that is simply beyond the physical abilities of the vast majority of people

    No less so where dynamically exploding out of harms way is involved for a great number of men and women who carry a pistol for self defense.

    Brownie
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