June 17th, 2009 04:23 PM
Tactical Response class review, Fighting Pistol in Muncy, PA 6/1/09-6/2/09
This is a review of the class I just took from TR.
No, it wasn't the class in the video, but it was the same format.
Yes. Jay Gibson - the same guy you are all calling a fool or worse for being on the line - was photographing the class.
Those of you who aren't interested in reading any further, please go away.
Those of you who want to hear about how the training went, read on...
Fighting Pistol 6/1 & 6/2
Taught by: James Yeager, Jay Gibson, and Brian Brekau
Short version: The class rocked. Instructors were great. I learned a lot.
A - On the range/shooting:
The class started off with safety instructions, and the class was run as a hot range. The instructors didn’t hover and treat the students like idiots; they simply demonstrated safe weapon handling, expected everyone to be safe to use their own intelligence and observational skills, and the students did it.
The drills started off progressively and built on each other very well.
Movement & drawstroke was broken down and practiced, then shooting from the holster, scanning for additional threats and topping off, malfunction clearance drills with dummy rounds progressed through the class to shooting from your back, shooting from your back and sitting up, then transitioning from the back to sitting to kneeling to standing. Shooting from retention was also covered, as was shooting on the move.
The class did not overly stress marksmanship, stance or grip. These topics were covered, but not beaten to death. They were taught to the degree necessary to achieve the desired results:
Students who can FIGHT with handguns.
When Tactical Response says “Fighting Pistol” they aren’t kidding.
B – On the range/Weapon operation in close proximity to people you do not want to shoot:
I have attended stick and knife seminars which did not leave me as drained as this class. This was Fighting Pistol. Fights are physical. You move. You change position. You change levels. Just like in boxing, stick fighting or grappling.
But in thinking back on the class I realized, that wasn’t why it left me completely drained. Hard work is one thing. This class was physically demanding…but unless I was so seriously out of shape that I can’t handle standing around for 2 days with some squatting, kneeling, sitting, laying on my back, and a bit of walking & footwork, something else was in play.
I think it had more to do with the class format rather than the physicality of it.
In a stick fighting class, if you screw up, someone gets a busted hand; If you don’t pay attention in a grappling class, someone can get an arm wrenched out of place or fall badly. …but more likely than not, that’s it. If someone made a mistake here – someone gets dead. Maybe you…maybe someone standing next to you, or at the other end of the line.
It took a lot of mental effort to operate a handgun safely while in close proximity to 25 moving people (which way will they guy next to you on the right or left move…that’s a good question…you can find out when James says “Fight!”…) and do not want to shoot, all the while making hits on a target you do what to put holes in.
That was stressful – but what happens when you are in a real situation with real bad guys in close proximity to your family? Stress. As Yeager said several times in the class, “Charlie don’t care…”.
Bad guys don’t either, which is what they count on.
This was a great learning experience for me.
In terms of technical skill such as shooting, handgun manipulation and shooting from different positions, I learned a lot.
Regarding the running a handgun safely and effectively (or was that effectively and safely…either way) in a crowded environment, I learned even more.
II - Lecture:
Lecture #1 (beginning of day #2)
Excellent. Simply excellent.
From the mindset of winning a fight, to the legal aspects of self defense to post shooting procedures & problems, it was comprehensive & excellent.
Lecture #2 (End of day #2)
Medical care is not something to be ignored. It is also not beyond the reach of ordinary people. You don’t have to be helpless when the **** hits the fan and people are bleeding.
Trauma wound care was broken down for people like me who know nothing more about trauma injuries other than “Dam. That’s going to leave a mark.” & “I think that’s going to require dry cleaning and a tailor...”
Do I feel like I can rush in and save the day with my newfound medical skills…no, but if I or someone get’s shot or stabbed I’m no longer in the dark as to what to do.
For those who want to know,I'm an attorney in Connecticut and I do civil litigation and criminal defense; and I'm an assistant moderator in the Legal section on GOTX.com.
I'm a risk averse person by nature and by trade. If I thought the training was unsafe due to the drills, Jay's location or any other factors, I'd have stepped off the line.
I didn't because I didn't see the need to do so.
If you don't think this kind of training isn't for you - don't go.
If you aren't sure, TR has a money back if not satisfied policy. You have nothing to loose by trying the class.
If you want to learn how to Fight with a handgun, I'm sure you know the website for TR by now.
I'll be training with TR again, and I don't have any fear for my safety in doing so either personally, professionally or related to litigation.
June 17th, 2009 07:58 PM
Nice concise review.
All the Tactical Response trained guys I've been on the range with were safe shooters.
June 17th, 2009 08:10 PM
Good review. I'm very satisfied with the professionalism of the instructors and the training I've received from them and will be returning for more.
"Being a predator isn't always comfortable but the only other option is to be prey. That is not an acceptable option." ~Phil Messina
If you carry in Condition 3, you have two empty chambers. One in the weapon...the other between your ears.
June 17th, 2009 09:42 PM
Nice AAR. I took "Fighting Pistol" in March, and like yourself, found it to be one of the most exhilirating (sp) things I've done in a very long time, but one of the most mentally and physically demanding things I've done as well. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend Tactical Response to ANYONE that wants to better their skills and add to their tool box.
Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.
June 17th, 2009 09:43 PM
Thanks for that review, keep up the good fight.
June 17th, 2009 10:05 PM
I guess its a good thing they teach emergency medical care along with the firearms training there.
We'll see what "certified Bad*****" do when somebody takes a round in the chest because they were downrange and how the class "rocks" then.
I'm not saying it would happen, but every time somebody engages in an inherently unsafe practice around firearms, the chances for mistakes increase. And nothing good ever comes from accidents involving firearms.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry
June 17th, 2009 10:14 PM
MitchellCT, thank you for posting the review.
edr9x23super, can we try to not let this degenerate into another flame-fest?
June 17th, 2009 10:43 PM
I guess it's a shock for you to see a firearms instructor actually believing in the stuff he is teaching?
Originally Posted by edr9x23super
June 18th, 2009 12:47 AM
1943 - 2009
Reminder - this is a nice, concise review of a training class.
Let's refrain from the snippy remarks and retaliations. If you can't think of anything positive and on topic to post, then stay the hell out of the thread.
When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
And go to your God like a soldier.
June 18th, 2009 07:23 AM
OK, fair enough.
RE: Emergency Medical treatment - Tactical Response also offers a 2 day Trauma Medical Class.
June 18th, 2009 09:06 AM
They also offer a 5 day medical course for civilian contractors (it's not everyday that you see a medical course that requires 2000 rounds of rifle ammo ).
Originally Posted by MitchellCT
June 18th, 2009 09:10 AM
Hey guys and gals,
Check out "HRCC Interviews" on YouTube. Good stuff.
June 18th, 2009 12:39 PM
The article is being discussed elsewhere. Regardless of feeling on the TR issue(and this article is unrelated), a poster had this very relevant notation:
Just a bit more, from someone else:
One of my instructors is considered a martial arts "genius". He trains and teaches hours daily. You cannot have a conversation with him which does not revolve around martial arts. When he drives he thinks about martial arts and elbows the steering wheel. He is a martial arts savant. I do not wish this on anyone, it effects relationships and lifestyle. Nothing is wrong with being really good. But even real good needs work.
I thought the 'X,000 hours' part was fairly widely accepted. I highlighted the other specifically because I see people making the same mistakes night after night (raises hand - "Guilty Your Honor"). Even when I'm trying to be diligent my mind wants to race through things. Without deliberate conscious effort to focus on the details we inevitably reduce what is presented (or what we know ourselves) to a diluted or distorted approximation, perhaps still reasonably effective, perhaps not. It's not exactly the same phenomena but it's no surprise when it comes time to roll to see people fail at things they 'know' because they rush through them missing half the details.
On the other hand, to say it's important to slow down isn't the same as saying we should do everything slow. I was going to babble about that but the clock says it's time to go... Follow up on that later if someone else doesn't happily (and better qualified) beat me to it.
June 18th, 2009 01:56 PM
This is general, and should probably be a topic of its own, however:
we spend significant time discussing tools and tactics here, but virtually none on strategic overview and the actual theory of martial action. In large part, I believe, this is due to the broad base of members and the extremely variable level of background and experience. This is not "bad" but can be limiting, and certainly an internet forum lacks much in interpersonal cues and information.
Understanding rationale is what seperates a practicum-specialist from the practioner. There is an actual science to developing higher performance and appropriate application of that performance. This is where the phrase, "know what you don't know" comes from.
A practicum-specialist is able to run a basic diagnostic and has a trained, set response; the practioner is able to immediately take the same basic assessment and one or more potential responses, and is able to run, for lack of a better term, a "consequential alogorithm"- they are sequentially 2-4 steps ahead in the OODA cycle. But, and this is a big "BUT", this is not only in the decision making cycle, but in the actualization as well. To equate it to my primary field, this level of practice is what seperates the Trauma or PICU "God" from the Trauma or PICU Physcian.
"THE" wrongful death/malpractice attorney in our state sought out one of our physcians to deliver care to him. His stated reason: "In over 100 suits, you've never been found at fault. Others second guess you, but your decision-making and practice are, in all practical terms, faultless."
Again, this a "general" statement. I am not a TR alumni, nor affiliated with them in any way.
I do demand excellence from myself. I will continue to push limits, personally and professionally, to enhance my ability to perform to a higher standard, on demand.
June 18th, 2009 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by Rob72
That guy must be completely insufferable to work with now...
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