IDPA - Page 3

IDPA

This is a discussion on IDPA within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Miggy The use of timers is a great stress inducer. It is, but it's also a double edged sword. In real life, ...

View Poll Results: Do you participate in IDPA or another pistol shooting sport?

Voters
161. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    74 45.96%
  • I used to

    9 5.59%
  • I'm going to look into now

    33 20.50%
  • No

    45 27.95%
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 62

Thread: IDPA

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    2,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    The use of timers is a great stress inducer.
    It is, but it's also a double edged sword. In real life, we generally want to move and shoot very quickly when confronted by a an assailant. However, when we aren't actually being confronted by an actual threat, I'd say it's often more appropriate to be more careful and deliberate.

    One of the stages at the match I shot today provides a good example of this. You start at one end of a long hallway, behind a piece of cover, facing two targets about 20 yards away. After engaging those two targets, you move down the long hallway to a shorter cross hallway, pie the corner, and engage two more targets. Then you move down the short hallway, pie another corner, and engage the last two targets.

    Now, while you're actually shooting these three pairs of targets, the pressure of the timer produces an appropriate response: shoot as quickly and accurately as possible. The problem, is that same time pressure gets applied inappropriately to other parts of the scenario: moving down the hallways and pieing the corner. Because everyone is trying to get a good time, they go running down the long hallway to try to get to the corner as quickly as possible. In real life, an assailant could pop out around that corner at any moment, and rather than sprinting down the hallway, it would make a lot more sense to move down the hall at a walking pace, probably with the gun pointed in at the corner where a threat might appear just below line of sight.

    Similarly, rather than pieing the corner slowly and carefully, exposing as little of themselves as possible and watching and listening for any sign of a threat, shooters know exactly where the threats are and they just pop out far enough to engage each target. They 'pie' the corner only in the sense that they don't expose themselves to the second target before engaging the first.

    I like timers for drills and relatively straightforward stages where all you're doing is shooting. You're there, the targets are there, and it's just a matter of shooting them as quickly and accurately as possible. I'm much less of a fan of the clock for longer scenario type stages where you're doing things like slicing the pie, moving, opening doors, etc. that may best be done more carefully and deliberately, rather than racing down hallways and careening around corners. Having shot a lot of untimed scenarios, I can say that just shooting while people are standing there, watching and judging your performance gets the stress level up there even without being on the clock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    Now, not everybody can shell big bucks to attend a tactical class every month but they sure can shell $10 to $20 on a monthly IDPA match which will provide them with a modicum of techniques that otherwise would not get.
    Oh, I agree. As I said in my first post in this thread it's a good place to get trigger time and to get some exposure to something other than a square range environment. It's particularly good if you approach it with the idea of shooting it as much like a real defensive encounter as possible, rather than with the aim of winning the game. Throw in some good self-defense training and do some practice outside of IDPA that fills in the gaps that IDPA doesn't cover and it's even better.


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,108
    I used to shoot a lot of USPSA, and now just IDPA when I can get away occasionally, but all of those disciplines should be taken for what they are, just games. Here is what I gleaned from them:

    USPSA - I became a Master here in 1991, competed in open division, some limited and a lot of 3-gun. The best pure shooters in the world come out of this discipline because of the competition and the amount of practice the shooters put in. If you take away all of the rules differences and just have a shooting contest based on speed and accuracy and handling a gun, a true USPSA Master or Grand Master will shoot the pants off of everybody else.

    IDPA - This is a good sport, and it reminds me of the way USPSA used to be, before the advent of the equipment race, which I grew up with when Strayer, Tripp & Voigt all got together and redesigned the 1911 along with a parallel effort from the folks at Para-Ordinance. IDPA came about because overnight single stack 1911s and the rest of the practical equipment being used were rendered obsolete, and there was no medium where one could use such equipment and put it to use competitively. That and Bill Wilson and a few others were losing a lot of money to the likes of Dave Dawson, STI, SV & all of the other gunsmiths that were turning out high-cap raceguns by the dozen. But IDPA has survived, even forcing USPSA to introduce a production division so they could start bringing in new members. I was one of the generation of USPSA shooters that became disllusioned with it all and changed to IDPA and will never go back to USPSA. IDPA is a good sport if you want to start thinking about basic strategies like using cover, or slicing the pie when approaching a doorway. In USPSA, I would have gone through a door like a kansas tornado looking for a trailer park. In IDPA, there are penalties, but those don't hurt nearly as much as the paintball gun at Thunder Ranch that reminded you that you just got killed trying to game out the room you were going to clear.

    My point here is that the gun games like USPSA, IDPA are just what they are - games. If you really want to learn how to survive a gun fight of any kind, that is best left to professionals, people who have actually been through such encounters themselves.......
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  3. #33
    Member Array NC Buckeye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Huntersville, NC
    Posts
    401
    I am interested in IDPA partlly as a replacement for Autocrossing and while it has about as much in common with an actual treat as autocrossing does road racing, it provides a stressor that you don't get elsewhere, I plan to shoot it with my EDC rig which will allow for uncovering and drawing practice, it forces a timed response and gives me people to chase after to get better. All of which are very good.

    Yes there is the law of unintended consequence. A dumb person might confuse cover and concealment (although most people don't think they can shoot at what they don't see) or rush down a hallway towards an arm assailant... but, it beats shooting at paper on a range.

    Based on the 12 responses of people that may consider it now, I think my post was a success.

  4. #34
    VIP Member
    Array Miggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Miami-Dade, FL
    Posts
    6,258
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    . Because everyone is trying to get a good time, they go running down the long hallway to try to get to the corner as quickly as possible. In real life, an assailant could pop out around that corner at any moment, and rather than sprinting down the hallway, it would make a lot more sense to move down the hall at a walking pace, probably with the gun pointed in at the corner where a threat might appear just below line of sight.
    .
    The problem in that club is bad SOing and bad CoF design doing vanilla stages for the gamers. A shooters turns a corner without slicing, he gets a procedural for being stupid and if he is willing to take the procedural because the math of going fast gives him a final advantage, then you nail him with a Failure to Do Right and that will kill his dream of a first place ending. In the design front, a hallway stage can be designed to put the brakes on gamers by changing the no-shoots targets from shooter to shooter or simply placing no shoots in the worse possible angles to partially block the targets. We do this on a regular basis and it will make you slow down to scan which is which.





    Again on design, Are stages designed to challenge the shooter by having them shoot in other than standing positions? Or facing irregular cover & concealment?







    Combination of Near and Far targets?



    Strong Hand Weak Hand drills? Shooting from sitting, laying down (face up, face down, on the side, etc)







    This one is just for showing off the quality of our participants

    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  5. #35
    Member Array ranburr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    307
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    It does have some limitations though. I don't think it really exercises the full range of gunfighting skills and it can teach you some bad habits that could get you killed in a real fight. If you keep these limitations in mind, you can try and shoot IDPA in a more realistic way and avoid some of the bad habits (though this will probably hurt your scores). Even better you can do additional training and practice outside of IDPA to try and practice the skills IDPA doesn't really cover.
    This is why I quit participating in IDPA. People can blame the clubs, but it has been the same at every club that I have tried.

  6. #36
    Member Array Manan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Hoosier
    Posts
    153
    Hey it looks fun and i just joined the assn. Looking forward to it.
    NRA Member
    I carry a .45 because they don't make a .46
    www.ShootersEar.com

  7. #37
    VIP Member
    Array Miggy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Miami-Dade, FL
    Posts
    6,258
    Quote Originally Posted by ranburr View Post
    This is why I quit participating in IDPA. People can blame the clubs, but it has been the same at every club that I have tried.
    So, what are you shooting in a regular basis in substitution of IDPA?

    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post

    My point here is that the gun games like USPSA, IDPA are just what they are - games. If you really want to learn how to survive a gun fight of any kind, that is best left to professionals, people who have actually been through such encounters themselves.......


    Ken Hackathorn has served as a US Army Special Forces Small Arms Instructor, Gunsite Instructor, and NRA Police Firearms Instructor. He is currently an FBI Certified Firearms Instructor, Certified Deputy Sheriff with Washington County SO, Ohio, and a SRT member and Special Response Team trainer. Ken has trained US Military Special Operations forces, Marine FAST and SOTG units and is a contract small arms trainer to FBI SWAT and HRT. Co-Founder of IDPA.


    Massad Ayoob is presently Director of the Lethal Force Institute (LFI), training hundreds of civilians and Law Enforcement personnel each year in judicious use of deadly force, armed and unarmed combat, threat management and officer survival. Additionally, he coordinates a dozen LFI staff instructors and assistant instructors in four countries. He appears selectively as a court accepted expert witness in the areas of dynamics of violent encounters, weapons and weapons / self-defense / police training, and survival and threat management tactics and principles. Massad Ayoob is a 5 gun IDPA master and shoots every month.

    Ernest Langdon has more than 11 years active duty as a U.S. Marine. He is a combat veteran who has participated in military operations all over the world including Panama, Cuba and the Persian Gulf. His extensive experience as a Marine Sniper, both as a team leader and a platoon sergeant, lead to his selection as instructor and later Chief Instructor of the Second Marine Division Scout Sniper School. After returning to the Fleet Marine Force for deployment to the Persian Gulf, he was reassigned to the High Risk Personnel Course in Quantico, VA., where he served as an instructor and later Chief Instructor for over three years. As the Chief Instructor of the High Risk Personnel program Mr. Langdon was responsible for the training of over 200 students annually in advanced marksmanship skills necessary to survive a terrorist or armed criminal assault. He has a Master Class rating from the United States Practical Shooting Association and the International Defensive Pistol Association with 7 National Championship titles and 2 World Championship titles.

    Jim Cirillo, formerly of the NYPD Stakeout Squad, survivor & winner many real life shootouts with bad guys and who recently died from a car accident was PPC and IDPA shooter.

    I can go on posting famous instructors and even regular folk that have the infamous "Been there T-shirt" and still shoot competition because they acknowledge it is good practice.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  8. #38
    Member Array Jumper2501's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    434
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    I just shot a local IDPA match today.
    Blackeagle, where was it? I'm not looking to flame, just want to know.
    NRA member
    GrassRoots GunRights SC member
    Walther PPS .40 / KelTec P3AT

  9. #39
    Member Array NC Buckeye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Huntersville, NC
    Posts
    401
    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper2501 View Post
    Blackeagle, where was it? I'm not looking to flame, just want to know.

    The IDPA site says the club in Gaston has them the 4th Saturday. I would guess there.

  10. #40
    Member Array Longbow's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Montana, USA
    Posts
    396
    I shoot with and am a member of our local USPSA shooting club.
    I am also a certified RO for the USPSA.
    We practice every Monday evening during the summer and hold a match
    every third Saturday of the month.
    We don't have a IDPA club here, but we do have another and brand new
    public shooting range so maybe they will get one going.
    "Planning to draw and chamber a round after TSHTF is like planning to fasten your seatbelt after you see the other guy run a stopsign..."

    Professional hand engraver.
    To see full picture of knife in Avatar click here

  11. #41
    Member Array BentLink's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    187
    I started IDPA last year. Definitely a means to get experience with gun skills under pressure. Tons of fun.
    Still Clingin'

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    2,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper2501 View Post
    Blackeagle, where was it? I'm not looking to flame, just want to know.
    Mid Carolina Rifle Club.

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    2,147
    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    The problem in that club is bad SOing and bad CoF design doing vanilla stages for the gamers. A shooters turns a corner without slicing, he gets a procedural for being stupid

    The problem is not that people don't slice the pie according to the IDPA rules, it's that the way the rules require you to slice the pie isn't very realistic. According to the rulebook, you only get a procedural for engaging two targets from the same position. One target increments is way too big a slice of the pie in real life. The rules also allow you to expose up to 50% of the upper body when shooting from behind cover, which is way too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    if he is willing to take the procedural because the math of going fast gives him a final advantage, then you nail him with a Failure to Do Right and that will kill his dream of a first place ending.
    The failure to do right penalty could be a powerful tool for getting people to shoot the stage more realistically, the problem seems to be that it is so draconian it hardly ever gets used except for the most blatant gaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    In the design front, a hallway stage can be designed to put the brakes on gamers by changing the no-shoots targets from shooter to shooter or simply placing no shoots in the worse possible angles to partially block the targets. We do this on a regular basis and it will make you slow down to scan which is which.
    Both of the last two pairs of targets I described had partially overlapping no-shoots between them. It didn't seem to slow people down at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miggy View Post
    Again on design, Are stages designed to challenge the shooter by having them shoot in other than standing positions? Or facing irregular cover & concealment?

    Strong Hand Weak Hand drills? Shooting from sitting, laying down (face up, face down, on the side, etc)
    Yep. One of the other stages we shot yesterday had you sitting at a picnic table with two no-shoots in front of you and six targets scattered beyond. You had to remain seated in the same spot and shoot all six targets. Basically this meant you were leaning over horizontally to shoot around the no-shoots and hit the target beyond it.

    Didn't have any one-hand only or support hand drills this month, but they've had them in the past. Unfortunately, they never actually require drawing with the support hand (always starts with the gun on a table or in support hand at low ready) or require one hand or support hand only reloading.

  14. #44
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Making ammo.
    Posts
    3,054
    Used to shoot IDPA. Now my business is too busy for free time.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  15. #45
    Member Array ranburr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    TX
    Posts
    307
    Miggy,

    I'm not saying that there aren't some well trained people in the sport. I am saying that from my experiences, they are the exception, not the rule. I have only shot with about eight different clubs. At each club, I was the only shooter with any formal training. I'm not saying that they didn't have good shooters. But, I am saying that they had very poor tactics. I gave up after the last group argued with me that I was committing a safety violation in the Suhl position. Of course none of them had ever heard of Suhl. As far as what I do now; I attend monthly training classes. IDPA is fun, I just don't think it is very realistic at the huge majority of clubs.

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. IDPA
    By Cas Cowboy in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: July 28th, 2009, 10:05 PM
  2. Can I use a VM II for IDPA, or just get something else?
    By TerryD in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: April 1st, 2008, 11:53 PM
  3. Having a fun IDPA day
    By Miggy in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: September 8th, 2007, 07:40 PM
  4. IDPA
    By JT in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: July 17th, 2007, 04:30 PM
  5. IDPA in KY
    By wareagleky in forum Defensive Carry & Tactical Training
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: May 22nd, 2007, 04:38 PM

Search tags for this page

idpa

,

idpa at markum park

,

idpa clarksville tn

,
idpa fayetteville nc
,

idpa forum

,

idpa montana

,

idpa near clarksville tn

,

markham park

,

markham park gun range

,

markham park shooting range

,

pps for idpa

,

pps idpa

Click on a term to search for related topics.