Defensive Carry banner

Do you participate in IDPA or another pistol shooting sport?

  • Yes

    Votes: 74 46.0%
  • I used to

    Votes: 9 5.6%
  • I'm going to look into now

    Votes: 33 20.5%
  • No

    Votes: 45 28.0%

IDPA

9K views 61 replies 33 participants last post by  Sticks 
#1 ·
I was not really sure where to post this, but this seemed as good a place as any.

I took some time today to go the IDPA match in Charlotte today and I have to say it looked like a ton of fun and I am surprised that it doesn't get more screen time on this site.

The addition of a timer, opportunities for penalties, strategy and chance of chastising by friend seemed to add a fair bit of stress to the event.

I saw malfunctions (some handled and moved on, some gamed for a better time), user error (guy had a magwell and mags with no pad so the wouldn't seat for him), environmental awareness (scanning for missed targets to avoid penalties), tactical and slide lock reloads, guys enter with a plan and completely forget it once they started shooting, and active movement. All of which seemed like good experience for people interested in Defensive Carrying.

So who here participates in IDPA or a similar shooting sport?
 
#5 ·
I shoot IDPA. I just got back from one of our regular matches.
 
#6 ·
I actually found out there is a local shooting range that offers all kinds of competitions, including several rimfire. Sadly with ammo like it is I'm thinking of trying that one. Although I know I'm going to be the worst shot there.
 
#7 ·
I said "No!"

I have thought about it from time to time.
I took a Pistol SD course from an instructor who is the FL Area Coordinator for IDPA, but he's 2 hours away.
I'm not sure that there is an IDPA center near me.
 
#9 ·
You are in the middle of 3-4 clubs and all far away? Darn!:rofl:
 
#8 ·
I just shot a local IDPA match today. IDPA can be a good place to get some trigger time in something other than a pure square range environment. It does have some limitations though. I don't think it really exercises the full range of gunfighting skills and it can teach you some bad habits that could get you killed in a real fight. If you keep these limitations in mind, you can try and shoot IDPA in a more realistic way and avoid some of the bad habits (though this will probably hurt your scores). Even better you can do additional training and practice outside of IDPA to try and practice the skills IDPA doesn't really cover.
 
#35 ·
It does have some limitations though. I don't think it really exercises the full range of gunfighting skills and it can teach you some bad habits that could get you killed in a real fight. If you keep these limitations in mind, you can try and shoot IDPA in a more realistic way and avoid some of the bad habits (though this will probably hurt your scores). Even better you can do additional training and practice outside of IDPA to try and practice the skills IDPA doesn't really cover.
This is why I quit participating in IDPA. People can blame the clubs, but it has been the same at every club that I have tried.
 
#11 ·
A friend of mine who occasionally posted here as Harold Green drew up a list.
Harold Green said:
  1. Poor use of cover. This occurs in at least three distinct circumstances:
    1. Exposing too much of one's self. This happens when a shooter steps out further than is needed from behind cover.
    2. Exposing one's self too long from behind cover. This happens most often when shooting multiple threats while slicing the pie. Your may spend long enough neutralizing the first threat that his partners will be able to sight in on your muzzle blasts and take you out as you try to engage them.
    3. Re-exposure in the same place. This happens when you've fired from around the edge of cover, duck back behind cover to reload or for some other reason and then come back out in the same place. Your opponent may have had time to align his sights on your last known location, and be ready for you when you pop back out to take additional shots.
  2. Use of concealment for cover. Participation in organized pistol matches conditions us to think of most walls as cover, when in actuality they're really concealment. Cover is something that will stop bullets, concealment will not. Most interior walls are made of sheetrock construction that bullets will readily penetrate. Most car doors and body panels are made of thin sheet metal that bullets will readily penetrate. In many pistol matches, the scenarios presented specify both of these as hardcover, when they are really bullet-permeable concealment.
  3. Infrequent use of a concealment garment. Many courses of fire used in pistol matches don't require the use of concealment. Almost all of us, who carry a gun for defensive purposes (with the exception of on-duty, uniformed police officers), carry it concealed. We should practice deploying it from that condition.
  4. Use of a "match gun" and equipment rather than your every-day concealed carry gun and equipment. All too often we see folks at pistol matches using guns, holsters, magazine pouches, and the like that are markedly different than the ones they use for every-day concealed carry. Practicing with equipment that's markedly different from what you may have to depend on to save your life may not be in your best interest.
  5. Use of low ready for weak hand exercises. Often, match directors will include weak hand exercises to simulate a disabled dominant hand. Very likely, if your dominant hand is disabled in a defensive encounter, it will occur before you've had a chance to draw your gun. If this happens, you will need to have practiced how to draw using your weak hand prior to needing to do so in order to save your life.
  6. Habitually double tapping everything rather than shooting to eliminate the threat. It's not uncommon to see shooters double tap targets when a course description calls for one round or for three rounds. Double taps are done so often most of us have gotten into the habit of doing a double tap and then assessing to see if we've made good hits. In a real defensive encounter a double tap may not take down an opponent. If this happens, that hesitation and assessment may cost you the advantage. Shoot until the threat ceases to be a threat, rather than automatically firing two shots and waiting to see what happens.
  7. Conditioning shooters to use two hands to re-holster. If your non-dominant hand is occupied with something important, you may not be able to use two hands to re-holster, and you may need to re-holster quickly in order to free up your dominant hand.
  8. Developing the habit of shooting for speed rather than emphasizing correct technique and tactics. The use of timers tends to make us focus on speed rather than on the use of proper shooting technique and tactics. In a high stress situation, improper technique could cost us hits, and improper tactics could get us killed.
  9. Conditioning shooters to automatically unload rather than scan at the end of a string. If you follow this conditioned response, once you think you've eliminated the threat, you may find yourself with an empty gun in your hand just in time to look around and find there were more threats than you realized.
  10. Insufficient use of movement. How many times have you seen shooters just stand with their feet planted and shoot? How many times have you seen shooters take baby steps when they're supposed to shoot while moving? If your life were in danger, would you stand still and make yourself a static target? If you were trying to get away from an adversary, would you take baby steps? No, of course not. Wouldn't it be better to practice the tactics and techniques you would use in a real encounter, like you would use them in a real encounter?
  11. Conditioning the shooter to perform tactical reloads whenever reloading a partially loaded gun. Tactical reloads are great, at the right time and in the right place. However, there may be times when you need to top off your gun and don't have the time for a tactical reload. If you tac load then, it could be hazardous to your health. So, why do we do tactical reloads? Because we may run out of ammo if we don't save the partial magazine. If you're in jeopardy of running out of ammo, just carry more ammo.
  12. Conditioning shooters to depend on the buzzer as a start cue. In real life, no one's going to sound the buzzer when you need to start defending yourself. The cues will probably be much more subtle than that. Condition yourself to watch for these cues (can you say condition yellow) and act on them when there is sufficient need.
  13. Conditioning shooters to solve all problems by shooting them. Every course of fire in traditional pistol matches requires the 'shooter' to shoot something. In real life, other solutions may not only be appropriate, but imperative. The old saw, 'if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' applies here. If you find yourself in a tight spot and have the choice to shoot or to run which is best? If you're conditioned to solve every problem by shooting, and running is the better choice, you may make the wrong choice. If your gun stops working, do you have other skills available to you that could be used to solve the problem? If you don't, maybe you should.
One additional one that I see all the time at IDPA matches is crowding cover or concealment and sticking the gun out beyond it. When you're slicing the pie, sticking your gun out beyond cover is like an invitation to any bad guy you haven't seen yet to shoot at your gun or hands or even to shoot at you through your concealment.
 
#12 ·
Participate in shooting sports? Yes. My club is geared toward IPSC and the USPSA. May be somewhat different overall from IDPA, but I've been exposed. I'm going a step further next month, and taking the level I NROI seminar to become a range officer.
 
#19 ·
I'm going a step further next month, and taking the level I NROI seminar to become a range officer.
Atta boy Ram. I run a USPSA club and an IDPA club. There ain't no substitute for people who are willing to help. The old axiom that 10% of the shooters do 90% of the work holds true in our sports: 10% help set up (though almost 100& help tear down). Thank you, and I salute your contribution, Sir!

As far as IDPA being valuable? Eh. Depends on the club. We run USPSA as it's meant to be run, and do solid, defensive stages in IPDA. That's all--we don't try to be USPSA-lite.

We have something called the Wolf Creek Start. At the beep they flinch, identify the threat, and then draw (thanks Rob).

We run stages where all of the shooting is done from the ground, sometimes with a 110 pound dummy on top of the shooter. We run stages where it takes 2 shots from retention, sometimes with a disarm move (drop me an E Mail and I'll sent the stage diagrams).

Now, heck yes, we run "fun" stages. I built 20 cobras from 1/4" plywood and cut a slot for 60mm clays. The shooter had to break the clay for a kill shot, and some were at 20 yards. They could run up, but they'd be shooting to either side if they did. That was "Snakes On A Stage", but the bulk of them are solid defensive skill building stages that the shooter can take home and use for valuable practice.

If the local club asks what your time on the El Pres is? Take 'em with a grain of salt...LOL

Dan
 
#21 ·
Blackeagle: I don't know what kind of shooting match your friend saw, but it was not IDPA. Some of his comments (such as "Infrequent use of a concealment garment", "Use of a "match gun" and equipment", "Conditioning shooters to use two hands to re-holster" and other comments make me think he has never attended an IDPA match.

You may find this article interesting. Specially the people mentioned in tha article and the one in the picture in page 3
IDPA Shooting
 
#23 ·
Blackeagle: I don't know what kind of shooting match your friend saw, but it was not IDPA. Some of his comments (such as "Infrequent use of a concealment garment", "Use of a "match gun" and equipment", "Conditioning shooters to use two hands to re-holster" and other comments make me think he has never attended an IDPA match.
My friend shot IDPA for many years (and IPSC/USPSA before that). While I have not been shooting nearly as long, I have seen every single one of those bad habits in play at IDPA matches, and usually see at least a majority of them at each match.

The match I shot today provides some excellent examples of some of the very things you mentioned. Due to the heat, they entirely removed the requirement for the cover garment for all stages. I and one other shooter used concealment regardless, but everyone else shot from open carry. As far as the 'match gun' goes, at the end of the match, the vast majority of participants routinely strip off the guns they used for the match and switch to smaller guns, more concealable holsters and mag pouches, or even go without a carry gun entirely. I am one of the minority of shooters who simply switch mags to carry ammo and leaves the range carrying the same equipment I shot the match with.
 
#27 ·
I used to and enjoyed it a lot. Our local club stopped offering matches as the same people would volunteer all the time and the same crown would just show up and shoot. The northern contingency of the club do hold matches, but the range is a good 2+ hours north and report time is around 0700. :tired:
 
#30 ·
The use of timers is a great stress inducer. It tries to add some pressure to the shooter's preformance which is a great learning tool. Most shooters starting IDPA soon find out that those perfect bullseyes at the static range disappear when they have to move and they running under a clock. And let's face it, the stress induced by a timer is very very small compared to the stress created by a self defense situation. So you may have gone to all the tactical schools and trained in the latest whiz-bang ninja techniques but if not practiced under some sort of stress to see if the shooter can actually procure a combat hit, all that training is wasted time and money.
Now, not everybody can shell big bucks to attend a tactical class every month but they sure can shell $10 to $20 on a monthly IDPA match which will provide them with a modicum of techniques that otherwise would not get.
 
#31 ·
The use of timers is a great stress inducer.
It is, but it's also a double edged sword. In real life, we generally want to move and shoot very quickly when confronted by a an assailant. However, when we aren't actually being confronted by an actual threat, I'd say it's often more appropriate to be more careful and deliberate.

One of the stages at the match I shot today provides a good example of this. You start at one end of a long hallway, behind a piece of cover, facing two targets about 20 yards away. After engaging those two targets, you move down the long hallway to a shorter cross hallway, pie the corner, and engage two more targets. Then you move down the short hallway, pie another corner, and engage the last two targets.

Now, while you're actually shooting these three pairs of targets, the pressure of the timer produces an appropriate response: shoot as quickly and accurately as possible. The problem, is that same time pressure gets applied inappropriately to other parts of the scenario: moving down the hallways and pieing the corner. Because everyone is trying to get a good time, they go running down the long hallway to try to get to the corner as quickly as possible. In real life, an assailant could pop out around that corner at any moment, and rather than sprinting down the hallway, it would make a lot more sense to move down the hall at a walking pace, probably with the gun pointed in at the corner where a threat might appear just below line of sight.

Similarly, rather than pieing the corner slowly and carefully, exposing as little of themselves as possible and watching and listening for any sign of a threat, shooters know exactly where the threats are and they just pop out far enough to engage each target. They 'pie' the corner only in the sense that they don't expose themselves to the second target before engaging the first.

I like timers for drills and relatively straightforward stages where all you're doing is shooting. You're there, the targets are there, and it's just a matter of shooting them as quickly and accurately as possible. I'm much less of a fan of the clock for longer scenario type stages where you're doing things like slicing the pie, moving, opening doors, etc. that may best be done more carefully and deliberately, rather than racing down hallways and careening around corners. Having shot a lot of untimed scenarios, I can say that just shooting while people are standing there, watching and judging your performance gets the stress level up there even without being on the clock.

Now, not everybody can shell big bucks to attend a tactical class every month but they sure can shell $10 to $20 on a monthly IDPA match which will provide them with a modicum of techniques that otherwise would not get.
Oh, I agree. As I said in my first post in this thread it's a good place to get trigger time and to get some exposure to something other than a square range environment. It's particularly good if you approach it with the idea of shooting it as much like a real defensive encounter as possible, rather than with the aim of winning the game. Throw in some good self-defense training and do some practice outside of IDPA that fills in the gaps that IDPA doesn't cover and it's even better.
 
#32 ·
I used to shoot a lot of USPSA, and now just IDPA when I can get away occasionally, but all of those disciplines should be taken for what they are, just games. Here is what I gleaned from them:

USPSA - I became a Master here in 1991, competed in open division, some limited and a lot of 3-gun. The best pure shooters in the world come out of this discipline because of the competition and the amount of practice the shooters put in. If you take away all of the rules differences and just have a shooting contest based on speed and accuracy and handling a gun, a true USPSA Master or Grand Master will shoot the pants off of everybody else.

IDPA - This is a good sport, and it reminds me of the way USPSA used to be, before the advent of the equipment race, which I grew up with when Strayer, Tripp & Voigt all got together and redesigned the 1911 along with a parallel effort from the folks at Para-Ordinance. IDPA came about because overnight single stack 1911s and the rest of the practical equipment being used were rendered obsolete, and there was no medium where one could use such equipment and put it to use competitively. That and Bill Wilson and a few others were losing a lot of money to the likes of Dave Dawson, STI, SV & all of the other gunsmiths that were turning out high-cap raceguns by the dozen. But IDPA has survived, even forcing USPSA to introduce a production division so they could start bringing in new members. I was one of the generation of USPSA shooters that became disllusioned with it all and changed to IDPA and will never go back to USPSA. IDPA is a good sport if you want to start thinking about basic strategies like using cover, or slicing the pie when approaching a doorway. In USPSA, I would have gone through a door like a kansas tornado looking for a trailer park. In IDPA, there are penalties, but those don't hurt nearly as much as the paintball gun at Thunder Ranch that reminded you that you just got killed trying to game out the room you were going to clear.

My point here is that the gun games like USPSA, IDPA are just what they are - games. If you really want to learn how to survive a gun fight of any kind, that is best left to professionals, people who have actually been through such encounters themselves.......
 
#33 ·
I am interested in IDPA partlly as a replacement for Autocrossing and while it has about as much in common with an actual treat as autocrossing does road racing, it provides a stressor that you don't get elsewhere, I plan to shoot it with my EDC rig which will allow for uncovering and drawing practice, it forces a timed response and gives me people to chase after to get better. All of which are very good.

Yes there is the law of unintended consequence. A dumb person might confuse cover and concealment (although most people don't think they can shoot at what they don't see) or rush down a hallway towards an arm assailant... but, it beats shooting at paper on a range.

Based on the 12 responses of people that may consider it now, I think my post was a success.
 
#40 ·
I shoot with and am a member of our local USPSA shooting club.
I am also a certified RO for the USPSA.
We practice every Monday evening during the summer and hold a match
every third Saturday of the month.
We don't have a IDPA club here, but we do have another and brand new
public shooting range so maybe they will get one going.
 
#45 ·
Miggy,

I'm not saying that there aren't some well trained people in the sport. I am saying that from my experiences, they are the exception, not the rule. I have only shot with about eight different clubs. At each club, I was the only shooter with any formal training. I'm not saying that they didn't have good shooters. But, I am saying that they had very poor tactics. I gave up after the last group argued with me that I was committing a safety violation in the Suhl position. Of course none of them had ever heard of Suhl. As far as what I do now; I attend monthly training classes. IDPA is fun, I just don't think it is very realistic at the huge majority of clubs.
 
#51 ·
Buck, if you think .45 v 9mm arguments are bad, you have no idea how nasty IDPA v. IPSC, IPSC v. PPC, Everybody v. Cowboy Shooting, etc can get :rofl:
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top