Non-Ballistic Pistol AAR Lessons Learned
This is a discussion on Non-Ballistic Pistol AAR Lessons Learned within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Even though this is the fourth class we have done using airsofts for force on force it is the first on that had no live ...
August 3rd, 2009 01:53 AM
Non-Ballistic Pistol AAR Lessons Learned
Even though this is the fourth class we have done using airsofts for force on force it is the first on that had no live fire at all. Here are some of the benefits of this course and training with airsoft over live ammo, paintball, or Simmunition.
If you train with MCS we supply KWS Glock 19s and Raven Concealment Phantom holsters. Also included in the gas and BBs.
This course can be done in any space about the size of a two car garage in or outside.
There is no need to have any live weapons or ammunition in the training environment.
We can fight in and around vehicles with very minimal chance of damage. You might not want to use your new BMW or Hummer though.
We use traditional targets and stands at first to teach techniques. Then we move on to force on force ranging from very simple drills such as being pushed down backwards, breaking your fall, drawing you pistol and engaging the target, to using the situation room where instructors and students come up with different scenarios ranging from low light/no light, home invasions, walking down a street, facing open hand, impact weapons, edged weapon attacks as well as multiple attackers.
Since using airsoft here are a few of our theories that have been evidenced with all shooters whether they had lots of previous training or had only shot a pistol a few times.
Now after hundreds of scenarios and drill with thousands of rounds fired I think we have had about a dozen head shots and none were intentional. No students have ever claimed to have been able to transition from chest to head shots. When head shots do occur they seem to either be when the bad guy is charging with his head down or has been hit in the groin bringing his head forward.
An extreme amount of round strike the forearms, fingers and hands of attackers especially if they are using a pistol
During force on force students seldom seem to be able to get both hands on the gun due to the proximity of the threat. As the threat stops, backs up or the good guy is able to gain distance he will go to two hands. We also see that especially with contact distance assaults with open hands, impact weapons and knives that the good guy is not able to get his arm to full extension, this prevents him from having the opportunity to use is sights or even the silhouette of the gun for sighting. The hit rate remains extremely high however do to ritualized combat that puts the attacker in line with the shooters muzzle during the attack.
Spontaneous open hand, edged weapon and impact weapons result in in the good guy using his weak arm to cover, wrap or block attacks. This results in good defense and control of the offending arm but often causes a fouled draw in the form on drawing the pistol with a cover garment wrapped around it, or a dropped gun. The farther behind the pocket seam the gun is worn the more likely this is to occur. This further evidences our research showing that gun carriers have got to have an open hand skill set. When students use both hands to defend open handed they usually suffer less trauma, end up not needing their pistol, or creating sufficient time and distance to draw the pistol.
Even during bright sunlight conditions student continually fail to identify the bright blue Blue Rings Box Cutter until they are cut with it. They usually believe they are being hit with a round house punch.
Just some points to ponder.
August 3rd, 2009 01:53 AM
August 3rd, 2009 03:43 AM
Some very interesting observations in there.
Here is a question for you (a side note, I've been shot with airsoft rounds, as well as paintball and sim rounds many time, I realize they still cause some pain.) But, as far as the part about head shots goes, my training has been to go for the head shot after a pair of shots to the COM (in an ideal world thats how it would go at least), for a multitude of reasons. Those reasons include things like the head is tiny compared to the chest, so go for the easier shot, and the pair could momentarily stun your enemy, thereby allowing you to go for the head shot. So, do you think that possibly a more painful (for lack of a better term), round, like sim rounds as opposed to Airsoft, the rate of head shots would increase? Or do you think it would remain the same?
I heartily agree that people need a whole toolbox when it comes to defense, and not just a firearm.
Thanks for the good read, when I'm permanently on the mainland, I think it would be interesting to take some courses with you.
Fortes Fortuna Juvat
Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor
August 3rd, 2009 05:15 AM
I noticed the same thing with military and law enforcement force on force marker round training. I have also noticed a rash of the same occurances in real combat.... I see more people get shot in the hands, arms and outer edges of the torso than you would think... especially the hands in close quarters. Part of the reason is when both parties are extending thier weapons to fire, the hand occupies a greater and greater "wedge" of target area and presents the first point of contact with the target. A second reason for this is people tend to subconciously point at the nearest (and greatest) threat... that outstretched weapon/hand IS that threat.
Its part of deadly combat, only two ways around it.
1) understand that it is going to happen and be conditioned to fire on your target until it is no longer a threat.
2) train train train to ignore the hand/gun/knife/threat and shoot for the central nervous system.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
August 3rd, 2009 10:01 AM
No, I don't think it would matter. The majority of my pistol students have already taken my open hand combatives course & edged weapons so they are allowed to use open hand combatives & edged weapons for defense during scenarios. These guys have no problem putting the hurt on each other, if they got a chance for a head shot they would take it. We also get a huge amount of contact shots. Another good thing about AS over Simms is that you can safely use it at contact distance.
Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL
When most people envision a shooting (thanks to TV) with them drawn down on a BG ordering to stop and when he does not comply they begin to shoot, he stumbles forward and they transition from the chest to the head.
During our scenarios no matter if I came up with them or a student did, ranging from a robbery ploy or escalation of an argument over a traffic accident, the shooting always seem to occur with the good guy moving backwards, left or right, and the bad guy coming straight in. The mind seems to realize that the head is a small target, and the last part of the body before rounds are going to go high over the shoulders and miss completely. "Aimed" head shots would also require you to use your sights. As the bad guy closes in much of the time the good guy does not have the room or time to get full extension of his arm making a transition from the chest to the head unlikely.
Sorry, but once again it just seems to be more and more traditional firearms training that does not evidence itself in reality and force on force.
Too much concentration on fighting with a gun instead of fighting with a gun in your hand.
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