This is a discussion on Friend Shot Himself Reholstering within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by cwblanco I constantly worry about this type of occurrence for those Glock, M&P and XD owners. I suppose that we could say ...
How "empty chamber ~ Israeli Carry" carry came to be.
In Israel...Israeli citizens could go and get a "loaner gun" to carry for personal protection. Usually for a day.
However there were many different types of semi-automatics available as loaner firearms.
Very often the Israeli citizen requesting a loaner could not obtain a specific firearm of choice.
They only got one of whatever was available.
All of those various assorted handguns (of course) had differing fire/safety controls.
In order that the citizen getting the loaner would not have to familiarize himself/herself with the operating controls of many different types, makes, models of firearms....the firearms were "loaned out" in a "magazine loaded" but, with the chamber empty condition....and all of the safeties were in the "OFF" position.
If the citizen needed to USE the firearm they would only have to rack the slide (on whatever semi-automatic they happened to have) and pull the trigger.
That is how "chamber empty" carry got it's inception in Israel.
Not because it was the BEST way to carry...but, only because it was a safe and less complicated method for "average persons" to carry who were not highly trained or skilled in the use of semi-automatic firearms.
So....you learned something today.
Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ
1. Who cares why Israel adopted C3 originally? A method works or it doesn't, regardless of the origin. People seem so bemused that Israel adopted C3 for this reason, as if it represents some sort of Gotcha. It works as an option today, for DIFFERENT reasons than it might have been used before. There are a variety of valid reasons to carry that way; the IDF's reason is just one. If in doubt, re-read the OP.
2. Israel was by far not the only place to use C3 for semi-autos. In fact, it was the most common method of carrying semi-autos for almost all of the first half of the last century. It was used with success in super-dangerous areas, such as by the SMP. It was used overseas in some places in the second half of the last century too, not just Israel. It is a reductive fallacy to equate 100% the use of C3 with Israel. Chamber empty carry is NOT "Israeli Carry."
Examine your own sentence for a second. I personally find it very revealing. So...the "best way" to CCW is the way that HSLD operators carry guns? Why? Are most posters here like that? Why isn't the "best way" the way that is best for the individual in question? Note that even HSLD operators get shot in training and have accidents. But given their job description, they opt to incur higher risks for the sake of a certain tactical wherewithal, towards a higher purpose than just self defense. But for a CCW holder, safety IS the ultimate goal. There IS no higher purpose. To incur risks greater than a gunfight in order to prepare for a gunfight doesn't make sense.Not because it was the BEST way to carry...but, only because it was a safe and less complicated method for "average persons" to carry who were not highly trained or skilled in the use of semi-automatic firearms.
By definition, most shooters ARE average. Your sentence fairly describes most CCW holders.
Not really. I knew all that long ago.So....you learned something today.
I attempted to make a clarification post of historical fact.
I'm not passing personal judgment on any condition of carry and there is nothing that you need to justify to me.
Carry in whatever condition you want to carry in and as long as you are safe with your firearm out in public - I like apple pie, cherry pie, & pecan pie...it's all well and good with me.
Israel used it for the reason you stated.
Rank and file people used it for many decades because semis of the era may not have been drop-safe.
Armies of virtually all nations in the last century carry PISTOLs C3 because they are not expected to be needed as a primary weapon in a quick draw scenario, hence why incur the ND risk?
CCW holders of any era might choose C3 if they reasonably believe the ND risk is higher FOR THEM than the perceived need for a super-quick draw or a mandatory need for two hands presenting.
Such an accident tends to be on my mind everytime I reholster one of the XD's. That is why I have trained myself to holster by holding the pistol by the slide and keeping fingers away from trigger and hand away from grip safety.
I'm sure the fact that a whimpy 9mm did that much damage has caused consternation on the part of some. There is nothing "whimpy" about a 9mm.
Hope your friend makes a fast and full recovery and get's back on the range in short order.
As for whether chambered on unchambered, which ever method you choose, just make sure to AWAYS carry the same way and practice the method you choose.
I prefer condition one, but then I carried a revolver for years and condition one was the only condition it had.
NRA Life Member
Bummer for your friend.
This brings up a thought I had regarding mag disconnects. I currently own a FS M&P 9 without the mag disconnect but am considering a 9c with the disconnect.
My current holstering procedure is to charge the gun if it's not already charged, Holster, then pop the mag and top off.
With a mag disconnect, you could charge, drop the mag, safely re-holster, top off and put the mag back in.
I don't really have a strong opinion regarding mag disconnects in a fight but it seems like it might just be worth it for safer re-holstering. Yes, I understand we should all just be more diligent in our safety procedures but we're also all human and if you're re-holstering at 4:00, there's only so much you can see.
But like everything else, if you make it a routine, it should work.
The mag disconnect safety; the grip safety; keeping thumb on hammer -- all decent ways of using a mechanical device to prevent NDs when reholstering.
Good thing that bullet didn't hit his femoral. Hope for a speedy recovory and a valuable lesson learned.
What good is it going to do to carry with an empty chamber? Let me clarify my point as it relates to this thread. Obviously, there have been many threads about carrying, drawing, having two hands available in a struggle etc....
As it relates to this thread; after you've used your gun, say in a self defense situation, what's the condition of the gun now? If you haven't emptied the magazine, then you are going to have a round in the chamber. Is a person now going to remove the round in the chamber before reholstering? I can go on and on with a series of hypatheticals that are unrelated to this thread so I won't go down that road.
My point remains, practice reholstering. If you are profeciant enough to be safe carrying a loaded firearm in public, then you should be safe reholstering a loaded gun.
No offense to your friend Brady, not having been there, my reply is meant in response to dgg's taking issue with my statement about "practice"
"Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."
Who is John Galt?
Thanks for posting, it's a good reminder to us all. Draw fast, holster slowly.
As for your friend, I'm glad he survived. That's a hard lesson to learn, and I think he'll be laid up for a lot longer than 5-6 weeks! But no worries, he'll be predicting changes in the weather in no time!
"In America, freedom and justice have always come from the ballot box, the jury box, and when that fails, the cartridge box."
-- Steve Symms, US Senator from Idaho, 1990
First of all, most of us won't have to deal with that circumstance. Second, you're probably going to be so jacked up on adrenaline that reholstering with a live round is going to be problematic no matter what.
Kind of a non sequitur, no? Sure, you can practice reholstering, but the fact remains it's an inherently dangerous thing to do with a live round, across many reps. Some people prefer not to.My point remains, practice reholstering. If you are profeciant enough to be safe carrying a loaded firearm in public, then you should be safe reholstering a loaded gun.
My problem with the concept of "practice" is that it's different each time you do it. What YOU do can become smoother and more predictable, what what your GARMENTS do can never become predictable. You can practice reholstering a million times, but on the 1,000,001st time, that's the day some stray cloth catches the trigger.
I was a radio technician for the police dept. One of the female officers got artificial 38s, which enabled her to be a better vice decoy. This also allowed carrying the model 36 in a holster just below the pair of 38s. Use your imagination!
A situation occured where she had to draw down on a perp. When the situation stabilized, and backup arrived. she holstered the weapon. There was a trigger shoe on it which caught on the holster, and it removed part of the 8s.
Afterward, she received too many disparaging comments from the male officers, and quit law enforcement.
Note: after that I became very concious about having my thumb pressing down on the exposed hammer while holstering.
Had another cop who was on a stakeout. The shotgun was nounted between the bucket seats on the floor. He got to fittling with it. The last user of the car jacked a round into the chamber and did not clear it. So, it went off and blew up the radio, thru the firewall, took apart the carburator, and left thru the hood.
His supervisor told him next time, play with his "thing" instead, if it goes off, it won't kill anyone.
Point is: even trained (?) professionals can have a bad day.