The perfect draw vs dynamic deployment - Page 2

The perfect draw vs dynamic deployment

This is a discussion on The perfect draw vs dynamic deployment within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Except for that pesky problem about the human stress response where you opponents chin naturally goes down to his chest to protect his throat. I ...

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Thread: The perfect draw vs dynamic deployment

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Except for that pesky problem about the human stress response where you opponents chin naturally goes down to his chest to protect his throat. I also obligates you to move backward instead to your flanks as your strong hand goes back to draw and your left hand goes forward to strike. You would also have to be well within arms distance to use the side of the hand.- George


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    My preferred throat strike to gain distance or as a loosener is the one often demonstrated by Bruce Lee in his books. It's called a "Spear Hand" in the Kempo system I study and involves slightly cupping your palm with your fingers and thumb fully extended forward for extra structure in your fingers and you strike with the middle finger into the trachea.

    I've had the displeasure to use this twice in a violent encounter and it worked like a charm both times.

    Great things about trachea shots are they cause a quite violent reaction to the respiratory response and I have yet to see or hear of someone bulldogging through one so they tend to make people stop advancing or thrusting forward momentarily.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I see you also use the "blind them with your white legs tactics"very natural,but tactical,LOL Those tactics work great for people that can physically do them,my spinal cord injury prevents me from maintaining a good balance or being able to move fast.
    BTW I enjoy reading your posts on defensive tactics
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Question

    As related to image two my very first thought was a wonder of what ie the relationship as between the human and the target.
    I do not mean spatial relationship.
    I am talking who is the target as to the human?

    Is the human a GG or a BG?
    Is the human a civilian or a LEO?
    Is the target assumed to be right handed as are the majority of humans and thus BG/GG persons?

    Reason why I ask these things...Lets look at the image again, with detail.


    The first target is ignored as that was nothing more than an action initiator.

    Meanwhile the human chooses to engage and run toward the target. He places his shoulders and thus centerline nearly square to that of the targets shoulders and centerline.
    Why would a person do this as toward a threat that is able enough as a threat to warrant reaction toward lethal force?

    Also the human is moving as in spatial relation to the target toward it's left and crossing to its center.
    As most human are right handed if the target is armed and has a handgun in specific then the human has aligned himself directly in front of the target and made it functionally easier for the target to snap/point shoot him as unsighted. If the target were instead drawn and at some degree of extension mid or high still the human has placed himself well within the natural and bio-mechanical sweet spot for the target to make a coarse kill shot.

    Why did he choose to move as n that direction and why is he aggressing/engaging?

    A LEO would not be closing distance, or shouldn't. He would be regressing and dropping away under these conditions to gain distance/space and seek cover and buy time to draw and fire all as at one.
    Equally one should be doing this at extreme angles as related to the target and not moving as within the targets direct plane or rather cone of inherent accuracy. For a left handed person it is more difficult to move the arm as in fine motor control toward shooting the direction of left. Opposite applies to a right handed person.
    Optimally in this case the the target would be left handed and the human placed himself to his left and remain as to his left....while moving, away.
    But is the target is a right handed person and the human as shown is standing on the left then he the human is at a strong disadvantage. By bio-mechanics alone. What to do? Get away ASAP which means buying distance and retreating away while drawing and firing if at all possible.

    The relative spatial distance between the human and the target are too far away for the human to seriously entertain closing distance and making contact with a pre-emptive/defenseless strike as prior to firing.
    This is shown by the shadow of the target as related to the humans feet. His feet do not yet touch the top of the shadows head. That target is likely near 6' tall per training target norms. The shadow as based on it's positioning relative to the target is close to if not just over/taller than that of the target.
    Good luck drawing, moving and preliminarily striking all at once as across that large of a gap...Without being shot as the target has sensed your presence and is aware of the humans movement.

    Last item, if the human is a GG and he is a civilian rather than LEO...Then he may find himself in hot water logistically, as after the fact.
    Reason being as a civilian he is not allowed to in many states to use lethal force as for anything but being i fear of ones own life and by that as means to reduce if not escape danger.
    One does not reduce nor escape danger by attacking it and closing distance to it.
    This is a side item thought but not everyone lives in TX where such items may not even be thought of by a jury nor discussed in a combat course such as this.

    Just my own take and $0.02 street.

    Same as others not intended to be a criticism to the negative as more a commentary related to observation and sharing of view & knowledge.
    I am not a Super human nor do I play one on TV.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #20
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Last item, if the human is a GG and he is a civilian rather than LEO...Then he may find himself in hot water logistically, as after the fact.
    Reason being as a civilian he is not allowed to in many states to use lethal force as for anything but being i fear of ones own life and by that as means to reduce if not escape danger.
    One does not reduce nor escape danger by attacking it and closing distance to it.- Janq


    I have never read a statute regarding deadly force that said you can only legally defend yourself while backing up......


    If you cannot back up fast enough to avoid a punch why do you think you'd be able to back up fast enough to avoid a bullet?

    If the fight STARTS at contact distance out to 3 yards then moving QUICKLY at a forward oblique angle as you get your gun in the fight OR simply crashing into the assailant to foul his draw or disarm him is actually SAFER than backing up. Action vs reaction does not take the day off.

    Now if it starts at 5 yards or farther and if cover is available then moving to cover would be better. But if you are within 3 steps you need to ATTACK and stop that threat IMMEDIATELY. It gets harder to fight effectivelty while retreating.......

    And one ABSOLUTELY does reduce and escape danger by attacking it. That is what STOPS attacks. If we can verbally deescalate...fine. If we have to physically deescalte then so be it. If we are forced to ballisticly deescalate the situation then I want to be ahead of his OODA loop and turning him from predator to prey, not playing my role of victim and doing exactly what he was expecting...backing away.
    Randy Harris
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruel Hand Luke View Post
    I have never read a statute regarding deadly force that said you can only legally defend yourself while backing up...
    Which is not what I'd said.

    Re-read my post.
    He is not within 'punching' (strike) distance, unless the target has LeBron James' arms.
    As well I spoke about avoiding the bullet.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #22
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    If he is within 3 steps you will get shot or stabbed backing up unless he is blind and crippled.

    Think back to grade school. When you played dodge ball what kept you from getting hit? Moving backwards or moving laterally? Laterally of course. Unless you get off the line of attack you are just roadkill on the highway that bullet is travelling on. People have a much harder time tracking targets laterally (especially when it is shooting back at them) than they have tracking int going away.

    I read your post. I answered why someone would move in a direction other than backwards.

    The other part of your post I was focusing on was the whole concept that somehow you are not legally allowed to defend yourself unless you are retreating. Can you point to that in any state statutes regarding self defense?

    So if I move laterally and forward to avoid getting shot as I get my gun out and shoot them, that is somehow harder to defend in court than if I backed up? Can you point to a case where that was argued?
    Randy Harris
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  8. #23
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    Thank you for your response. I hope I haven't derailed your thread from its original purpose. I look foreward to your next posting.

    As to your original post, I have seen handguns drawn in some rather 'unorthodox' manners when stress is applied. That's one of the reasons I'm such a fan of instructors who take the time to cover personal/situational awareness, so that we (students) on the street don't have to make a quickdraw.

    dan


    "But don't you think if we had the situational awareness to see the problem developing we would have the good sense to remove ourselves from the scene?"- JohnN

    ........yes, that is why I referred to it as "awareness". Not just "response". I believe the Nike Principal (one shoe applied in front of the other, in rapid succession, opposite the threat) is the primary, and should be the most sought after ingrained response to what could be shaping up as a deadly encounter. BUT, should that fail, and guns come into play, some degree of situational awareness may have allowed you to be in a better position to draw, of maybe have allowed one to draw before it gets so heated and confused the draw gets muffed.

    dan

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    I second the opinion of jumping the assailant if they're within three steps or so. Just because you have a gun doesn't mean that all the tactics (that you hopefully) learned in unarmed combatives don't apply. Jump their bones with overwehelming aggression, get a position of dominance, and then go for the gun.

    If they're within 10 feet or so and not shooting at you then they another thing for you in mind. It really is that simple. They might shoot you after they get what they want, they might just go away, but I'm not too keen to find out which the hard way.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Talking

    "Jump their bones with overwehelming aggression, get a position of dominance"-psychophipps

    ok, now yer just talkin' dirty.

    Agreed, once it's established one cannot end the attack just by exiting the area, then 'bring it'. The gun is just a tool. Hit the attacker with all the 'tools' ya brung if that's what it takes to go home.

    dan

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruel Hand Luke View Post
    If he is within 3 steps you will get shot or stabbed backing up unless he is blind and crippled.

    Think back to grade school. When you played dodge ball what kept you from getting hit? Moving backwards or moving laterally? Laterally of course. Unless you get off the line of attack you are just roadkill on the highway that bullet is travelling on. People have a much harder time tracking targets laterally (especially when it is shooting back at them) than they have tracking int going away.

    I read your post. I answered why someone would move in a direction other than backwards.

    The other part of your post I was focusing on was the whole concept that somehow you are not legally allowed to defend yourself unless you are retreating. Can you point to that in any state statutes regarding self defense?

    So if I move laterally and forward to avoid getting shot as I get my gun out and shoot them, that is somehow harder to defend in court than if I backed up? Can you point to a case where that was argued?
    Movement laterally was the core of my post (?).

    Again, go back and re-read.

    You took my statement singular about moving back/rearward as out of context to the whole of my post.
    As though you skim read my post or read just a few sentences and then jumped down to the end.

    As to legally defend yourself while aggressing/moving forward I'll to start quote myself...

    Why did he choose to move as n that direction and why is he aggressing/engaging?

    A LEO would not be closing distance, or shouldn't. He would be regressing and dropping away under these conditions to gain distance/space and seek cover and buy time to draw and fire all as at one...

    Last item, if the human is a GG and he is a civilian rather than LEO...Then he may find himself in hot water logistically, as after the fact.
    Reason being as a civilian he is not allowed to in many states to use lethal force as for anything but being i fear of ones own life and by that as means to reduce if not escape danger.
    One does not reduce nor escape danger by attacking it and closing distance to it.
    There have been _many_ examples of exactly this year alone and featured here to much discussion at this forum.
    Examples that come to mind immediately are that of Joe Horn in TX. That of the pharmacist who was attacked only to then respond by _aggressing_ and shooting one (a teen) as he chased his secondary out the store. Only to then re-engage the primary and once again aggress shooting him a second time. All caught on video.
    Then there was the case of the security guard caught in a parking lot by a drunk/drugged up attacker who in the end chased each other around their cars only to then have the security guard engage and aggress the man and shoot him dead. There was the case last winter of the guy plowing snow in a parking lot who exited his vehicle (rather than driving away) to aggress and engage in a fist fight with a driver also on the same lot only to wind up with a shooting.
    The case of the young man who exited his home to see about his car alarm going off only to find a BG there. He engages and shoots and kills the would be thief upon aggressing toward him and actively exposing himself to danger.
    There are _very many_ more but this is just a smattering.

    All very different states and regions including Joe Horn being in Texas.
    Common denominator though?
    The police local or state and/or the state AGs found the actor to have committed a crime and/or not been warranted to use lethal force.

    Even among our own membership the above items have been of high and long running discussion with exact same views, often times split down the middle. These are recent memory items that were featured here; In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly - DefensiveCarry Concealed Carry Forum

    As to your dodgeball analogy, which BTW was my favorite game in those times, getting closer to the person was and is not a win move.
    Being closer as in Dodgeball makes it that much _easier_ for the thrower to aim (that much less...with greater degree of coarseness) and hit you as well as it makes it that much harder for you to dodge the ball and/or catch it if hit in the chest.
    But shooting and working among BGs with guns and knives is nothing like playing dodgeball.

    The key to survival is not being where trouble/danger is.
    We all know this. Or should.
    As related back to the image as shown getting away from the BG, if he is the BG, as at angles which I had discussed in detail is _key_.
    Further engaging the BG as a mode of training, per his as shown body movement and limb placement (see his feet and direction of travel) is not optimal. Running toward a threat is not a natural reaction nor is it optimal as toward the big picture which is to survive the encounter.

    Sorry about the delay in responding.
    I was largely off-line leading up to and through the holidays and simply not paying much attention to forums nor this thread as per my otherwise norm.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    As to state laws/statutes this too has been covered many times in the not so far past as here at this forum, and discussed in detail.
    For examples see the laws of states such as FL, TX, IL, MA, VT, NJ, PA, MD, CT and CA where as these among many other state specific statutes have been discussed here at DC.com to same real world case and effect (not hypothetical) result.
    All within this year toward the exact same topic as generally related to "duty to retreat"; http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...archid=2800298
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #27
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Reason why I ask these things...Lets look at the image again, with detail...
    - Janq
    Very nice analysis, Janq. I also wondered why the human was moving left and toward the standing target. Maybe there are spatial and/or situational assumptions in the drill that require it.

    Assuming open space, level ground, and that the human is civilian and both targets are BGs, I think the human should be moving to the right and away. Moving away for precisely the reasons you state. Moving to the right so that both BGs are in his line of sight, and also to make himself a more difficult target for the standing BG.

    With respect to George's Panic Push, I think it is superior to the weak-hand strike for the reasons George states in his response to Black Knife. However, one must definitely have determined that hands on is required because (as George himself says in the video) once you do it the fight is on. As portrayed in the video here, it is more of a mutual combat sequence than a self-defense sequence as both guys are going up to each other chest to chest. I also like following it up by moving at an angle like George does in the video, though I'm not overly excited about the semi arm bar as it has a significant chance of not working well. After moving at an angle, I'd prefer to follow it up with another hard push combined with an attempt to flee or a strike, depending on circumstances.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

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