Front Sight 4 Day Defensive Handgun (long post warning)

Front Sight 4 Day Defensive Handgun (long post warning)

This is a discussion on Front Sight 4 Day Defensive Handgun (long post warning) within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I first contacted Front Sight back in February, when I signed up for their "Millionaire Patriot Offer". After a delay of 3 months, waiting for ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Front Sight 4 Day Defensive Handgun (long post warning)

    I first contacted Front Sight back in February, when I signed up for their "Millionaire Patriot Offer". After a delay of 3 months, waiting for the gun and gear, I finally agreed to accept a Taurus PT1911, instead of the Springfield XD .45. They kept telling me that they were waiting for shipments from the manufacturer. Anyway, long story short, I got tired of waiting and agreed to the Taurus.

    At first I was disappointed with the Taurus, but after I got to know it, it is a fine pistol. I was a bit worried, however, wondering if the Taurus would handle the grueling 4 day course of 800 rounds. Throughout the summer, I shot less than 500 rounds through the Taurus, no malfunctions of any kind, I really got used to this pistol. I ordered an IWB holster from Little Bear Holsters and now I'm ready to go to Front Sight.

    Well, it took a couple of months to coerce my brother and two cousins to go with me and we set the date Oct. 23, 2009. 8 months had passed since I originally purchased the course and now we were finally going. I had mixed feelings, I didn't know if I should be excited or worried. I had heard a lot of good things about Front Sight, but because of a little bit of negative dealings with the gun shipment, I was concerned that I would be disappointed with the experience.

    I was pleasantly surprised, to say the least. The first day was filled with some long, but informative and interesting, lectures. A long, exhausting day. We got out about 7 pm.

    Back again, day 2. We got started right away on the range. Our range master, Eric Loden, was a great instructor. We learned proper presentation, tactical and emergency reloads, a lot of dry fire drills mixed in with the live fire drills. The temp was in the high 80's all weekend, some people were complaining about the heat, but being an Arizona guy, it was pleasant fall weather.

    Day 3. Things really got cooking today. Started firing exercises on turning targets. Failure to stop drills, aka Mozambique drills, hostage shots. A lot of repetition, but the range officers were all excellent, very patient and informative. After lunch, we were lectured on tactics, approaching and getting through funnels, doors and hallways, etc. Excellent lecture, I wish I could remember the name of the lecturing instructor. After the lecture we went out to a live fire house and ran through a simulator of sorts, really fun stuff shooting at life size photos of bad guys, try not to shoot the good guys. This was the longest day, we stayed until nightfall to learn low light shooting with the Harries technique. During our evening dinner break, an instructor gave a lecture about low light shooting, covered several different techniques, gave pros and cons of each. He also demonstrated the various techniques and used many different types of lights. Excellent lectures, all of them. Night shoot was a blast, no pun intended. I used my G2 that came with the free gun and gear offer.

    Day 4. I'm very homesick, miss my kids something terrible. Lots of shooting today. We were run through a review of all the stuff we had learned the previous days and prepared for a skills test at the end of the day. The skills test involved getting two controlled hits on turning targets at 3 and 5 meters in under 2 seconds. I was amazed that I could accomplish this it was a lot of fun. We also had timed head shots at 3, 5 and 7 meters, I don't know how long the 7 meter timer was, but it was longer than the 3 and 5. Also, this skills test was done from concealment, I used my Carhartt vest, it worked great. We were also timed for malfunction clearances. I can't remember which day we were taught these, probably day 3. I flubbed an emergency reload and a type 3 malfunction and it cost me the 'Distinguished Graduate' title. No matter, I was surprised at what I was able to do with their excellent instruction, especially because this was my first attempt, at any level, of any kind of firearms training.

    Trying to sum up; I had a blast. The course exceeded my expectations and I will definitely be going back. The Taurus also held up great. I never cleaned it, wanting to see how it would perform.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    This was a 5 shot group @ 7 meters, notice how dirty the Taurus is.

    On a closing note; I must admit that, at first, I was a little skeptical at Ignatius Piazza's marketing strategy, but after attending and listening to their point of view, and also gaining a better insight of what their trying to accomplish, I understand why he does what he does. I might've done it differently, but Front Sight knows what their doing. Oh yeah, I applauded at the end of the last lecture when we all left.

    My apologies for the long post. I was hoping to be informative to whoever might be looking for some info on Front Sight.
    Last edited by zacii; October 29th, 2009 at 11:47 PM. Reason: resize picture
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source


  2. #2
    Member Array kmbrcstm2's Avatar
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    Thanks for the review and great write-up! I've been thinking about taking their 4 day defensive rifle course but have heard a lot of bad press about them lately. Good to hear they are still running a tight ship.
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  3. #3
    Member Array Kenny256's Avatar
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    Sounds like a great time!

    I cant wait to go get some training!
    I hope my experience will be like yours!
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  4. #4
    Member Array AceHi's Avatar
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    kmbrcstm2, I took the 4-day rifle class last spring and it was great. Mostly the same classroom work as the handgun class as well as lots of shooting from 25, 50, 100, 200, and 400 yards. One of the most fun things was that you get to individually clear a canyon with steel targets and paper (both good guy and bad guy) targets. Don't worry about the bad press - it doesn't really have anything to do with the training.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member Array Plop's Avatar
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    Nice report, thanks for posting. I attended the 4-day handgun class earlier this year and loved it. I'm headed back next week for the 4-day practical rifle class.
    "In America, freedom and justice have always come from the ballot box, the jury box, and when that fails, the cartridge box."
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    We were on a different range...

    My wife and I went to the Oct 23 four day Defensive Handgun on a different range - range 6. Mike was our range master. We had a great experience. The lectures were by Wes and Scott. Wes is the director and Scott does the concealed carry stuff. Everything was as you said, my wife was particularly impressed with how the women were not treated as second class attenders. We also did the concealed carry class the day after the four day handgun. We left with the paperwork for Nevada, Utah and Florida. We feel a lot better about the prospect of concealed carry when the permits come. I had also seen hints that there was problems with Front Sight, but if the attendance and the feeling of the attendees is any indicator, then the only problems appear to be rumors.

  7. #7
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    Glad you had a great time! I did the 4 day plus CCW back in June. I think that their training is fantastic but I don't care for some of the controversy surrounding the good doctor! Anyway, unless they have changed, they do not teach the Mozambique drill. The Mozambique drill is two to the chest and one to the head in one continuous motion. Front Sight teaches to double tap the the thoracic cavity and then if the perp is still coming at you then you shoot one to the head. If you immediately do the Mozambique drill you will probably be charged with murder as this is strictly an execution procedure not a self defense procedure. Unless they have changed the class (each instructor is a little different), FS teaches you to do the double tap and then move, check your surroundings, and evaluate your target. If the target is still a threat, then you shoot again. By the nature of this process there is time between the first two and the third shot. This is critical as any witnesses have to be able to show that you called out the warnings, shot twice, moved, and then shot again. If all that the see is you and a quick bang, bang, bang, your goose will be cooked! FS also teaches that a trial by your "peers" is not really a reality because most do not understand guns and self defense, they are missing work for a pittance of pay, etc. So having your act together is really important to how you survive the legal aftermath.

    Armydad

  8. #8
    Member Array AceHi's Avatar
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    Front Sight calls that the "failure to stop" drill and they use the turning targets to simulate the bad guy still being a threat after two shots to the thoracic cavity. They are very emphatic about only shooting until the threat is stopped.
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    Senior Member Array Beans's Avatar
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    If you immediately do the Mozambique drill you will probably be charged with murder as this is strictly an execution procedure not a self defense procedure.
    IMHO I would challenge this. In all my classes I have been taught, IF you have to use a defensive weapon to save your life or a life of a loved one that you shoot until the threat is eliminated or stopped. (LEO and Civilian)

    No where have I encountered instructions stating do not shoot anyone in the head to stop the threat.

    I would put this the same as "you should only shoot him/her in the leg or arm to stop the threat"

    If the perp is stopped then I agree you don’t walk up to him/her and put a round into his head. Then that becomes murder as the threat had been stopped and now you are the aggressor

    A bad shoot is a bad shoot and you could be charges with first degree murder.

    A good shoot is a good shoot and no charges should be filed.

    An over zealous prosecutor may still bring charges against just because he can.
    Last edited by Beans; October 31st, 2009 at 12:25 PM. Reason: spelling

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armydad View Post
    Glad you had a great time! I did the 4 day plus CCW back in June. I think that their training is fantastic but I don't care for some of the controversy surrounding the good doctor! Anyway, unless they have changed, they do not teach the Mozambique drill. The Mozambique drill is two to the chest and one to the head in one continuous motion. Front Sight teaches to double tap the the thoracic cavity and then if the perp is still coming at you then you shoot one to the head. If you immediately do the Mozambique drill you will probably be charged with murder as this is strictly an execution procedure not a self defense procedure. Unless they have changed the class (each instructor is a little different), FS teaches you to do the double tap and then move, check your surroundings, and evaluate your target. If the target is still a threat, then you shoot again. By the nature of this process there is time between the first two and the third shot. This is critical as any witnesses have to be able to show that you called out the warnings, shot twice, moved, and then shot again. If all that the see is you and a quick bang, bang, bang, your goose will be cooked! FS also teaches that a trial by your "peers" is not really a reality because most do not understand guns and self defense, they are missing work for a pittance of pay, etc. So having your act together is really important to how you survive the legal aftermath.

    Armydad
    You're correct. I called it the 'Mozambique', but I guess that's not technically correct. It was called the 'Failure to Stop' drill. A controlled pair (they don't like the term 'double tap', either) to the thoracic cavity, quick check for additional threats and if the primary threat didn't stop, guarantee a shot to the cranio ocular cavity. They did stress the importance of the pause, to guarantee the shot and to show that you weren't determined to kill the BG, just do whatever it takes to stop him.

    On a side note, they stressed not to take pelvis shots. They explained that handgun rounds are very ineffective and wouldn't break the pelvis. More likely, it would just put a hole and, odds are, wouldn't stop the BG. So, controlled pair to the vitals, that doesn't stop, pause and guarantee the head shot. Oh, and pause means tenths of a second, not 60 seconds.
    Last edited by zacii; October 31st, 2009 at 01:59 PM. Reason: add'l info
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    I read somewhere someone advocated two to chest, then if you still have a target to shoot, shoot. Bystanders won't know the difference in how long long you "paused"

  12. #12
    Member Array Damon1976's Avatar
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    I really appreciate this review. I have been monitoring FS for about 6mo now trying to decide if I wanted to take a course there. I am still a little torn since there is a school in Orlando, Bushido Tactical, which is closer and cheaper. But it sounds like FS lives up to what they advertise and I would be well served either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damon1976 View Post
    I really appreciate this review. I have been monitoring FS for about 6mo now trying to decide if I wanted to take a course there. I am still a little torn since there is a school in Orlando, Bushido Tactical, which is closer and cheaper. But it sounds like FS lives up to what they advertise and I would be well served either way.
    The training is superb!! The sales pitch is not too bad from the pressure standpoint, just expect every lunch time to have some of the 90 minute video. Just go prepared for all kinds of weather and make sure that you take a concealment garment of some type (vest, etc.) if you take the 4 day course as the last day and a half or so are done from concealment, including the exam shooting. And, don't worry about your skill level as they treat everyone very well. The point is to take you from where you are at and make you better. And that they do!

    Armydad

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    Senior Member Array justherenow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damon1976 View Post
    I really appreciate this review. I have been monitoring FS for about 6mo now trying to decide if I wanted to take a course there. I am still a little torn since there is a school in Orlando, Bushido Tactical, which is closer and cheaper. But it sounds like FS lives up to what they advertise and I would be well served either way.
    If you do a search on Ebay or a few other sites, you can find certificates for 2 or 4 day classes for $100 or less. It is just a matter of getting there, lodging and other expenses.
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    Member Array tszpara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justherenow View Post
    If you do a search on Ebay or a few other sites, you can find certificates for 2 or 4 day classes for $100 or less. It is just a matter of getting there, lodging and other expenses.
    Thanks for the tip.

    Looking to take the course some time next year once I get some $$ saved.

    I wish someone had a similar deal/training on the east coast.

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