PDTV Episode (11/02/09) -- Good or Bad Techniques???

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Thread: PDTV Episode (11/02/09) -- Good or Bad Techniques???

  1. #1
    Member Array SnubMan's Avatar
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    PDTV Episode (11/02/09) -- Good or Bad Techniques???

    PDTV Episode (11/02/09) -- Good or Bad Techniques???

    If you caught PDTV (Personal Defense Television -- Sportsman Channel) one of the instructors Tiger Mckee demonstrated two different techniques that I had not seen before. Let me know what you think of these techniques…

    *** I'll do my best to describe the setup -- hopefully you caught some of the episode during the game last night.

    1. Sidearm as an Impact Weapon---

    Mckee (the instructor) used the muzzle of his sidearm to jab an assailant in the chest when his gun malfunctioned. In doing so he had to step forward towards the threat and stay online with the target. Is this a good response??? I believe that creating distance while simultaneously fixing the malfunction and then firing would be better. I don’t like the idea of getting closer to the threat to give him an opportunity to take my gun/injure me with whatever weapon that he has.

    2. Weapon Retention Situation--

    An assailant grabbed the instructor's drawn handgun with both hands (weapon was pointed at the assailant). The instructor did a move which I have seen before and to me does make sense (simply pulling the sidearm straight backwards away from the threat -- rather simple) IF that didn’t work he then laid back down on the ground and used his legs to kick the assailant to free the handgun from the attacker’s grip.

    *** To me this seemed really dumb -- intentionally getting on the ground never seems like a good idea.

    **** Lethal Force Question****
    -- In the second situation -- when you are having to fight for control of your firearm it seems pretty clear that the assailant could very well take your weapon and kill you with it so.... couldn't you just shoot them in this situation -- to me this makes the most sense as it would be quick/effective. ---- The way I see it in a struggle for control of your handgun all the elements needed to use deadly force are present.

    Let me know what you think. I haven't seen this show in a while and trying to figure out if its even worth watching... As always I appreciate all the input from everybody on DC Forum. Thanks everybody.

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array ProShooter's Avatar
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    I dont like either scenario...

    When I was at Blackwater, I was taught a technique during a CQB class that involved popping someone in the forehead with the muzzle of your handgun....DUMB!

    Secondly, I saw something on PDTV where the instructor was touting the wonders of laser sights and he said something about "if you can't see the assailant, you can hide behind something and guide the laser light onto them so that you can get a shot off"....something like that.

    If you can't see your attacker, you should be running! Not shooting! IMO, lasers have no place on a defensive handgun. They were designed solely for training. As of yet, I havent seen another episode of that show but what I saw didnt impress me.

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    Senior Member Array threefeathers's Avatar
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    Jim Lyndell developed the most effective gun retention and disarming techniques that exist. Mas Ayoob and Marty Hays teach them intensively at LFI II and III. I wasn't impressed with what I saw and when I see Rob Pincus in June I may ask him about them.

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    technique

    I have been a student of Tigers' for awhile and he puts much thought and work into his teaching. Do not concern yourself as his teachings have great foundations and he would never recommend anything that doesn't work well. thanks...John

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    "IF that didn’t work he then laid back down on the ground"

    I'm too old to voluntarily lay down on the ground. That will come soon enough anyhow.

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    You guys are forgetting that these are simply tools to have in your "toolbox". There is no definitive technique to self defense as every situation is unique, so the response must be as well.

    As for the show, it is nothing more than a commercial designed to sell whatever gadget is paying the bills that week.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    You guys are forgetting that these are simply tools to have in your "toolbox". There is no definitive technique to self defense as every situation is unique, so the response must be as well.

    As for the show, it is nothing more than a commercial designed to sell whatever gadget is paying the bills that week.



    Yep, just a 30 minute infomercial for the product of the week.

    But, I do watch each and every one of them every week.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

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    Well, if you have a firearm 'malf" and opt to do SOMETHING LIKE a "face smash" with your firearm muzzle against an actual attacker - it absolutely NEEDS to be a violently eruptive, explosive & lightning~fast blow and that is nearly impossible to "simulate" in any TV type demonstration where you would need to exercise restraint AKA move slower and pull back in order to make certain that you do not cause any permanent physical injury to a training or demonstration partner.
    In order to do it right you need to do it for real.

  10. #9
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    That is not a true statement though it did make for a really good 2 second sound-bite on your part.



    "As for the show, it is nothing more than a commercial designed to sell whatever gadget is paying the bills that week."

  11. #10
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    How is it not true?

    Each week the featured guests just happen to be using whatever brand equipment bought the commercials that week?

    And it is a nice little bit of SIXTO, isnt it.
    "Just blame Sixto"

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    The truth about self defense

    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    . There is no definitive technique to self defense as every situation is unique, so the response must be as well.
    Finally, someone has spoken the truth!!!

    fluid, dynamic, situational, lots of variables, unique

    There ain't no one* magic technique or art any more than there is one magic bullet type.
    ______________________________
    *bad grammar used for emphasis

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    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    I wasn't overly impressed with the "just step back and give the gun a yank" retention drill because any real assailant is just going to keep pushing forward as you step back, even if you start to fall down onto your back. Stepping straight back means that you just gave them one more step of momentum before they plow into you as well.
    You've just been assaulted. They're obviously aggressive and they also know that if you get that gun into play, they're going to have a seriously bad day at the office. Why would they: 1) just stand there once they grab the gun, 2) not just jump on you once you break your balance and fall on your can/back, and 3) just keep their mitts on the weapon so they can feel you doing all of the above before it becomes untenable to maintain their grip?
    I also wasn't too impressed with the strike, retention hand position, draw, shoot scenario. If your strike doesn't have the pepper behind it for a good stun then your retracting hand isn't going to stop that poke into the snoot that following it as it retracts. I would much rather train to strike the chin with a palm strike while clawing the eyes and then maintain a stiff-arm on the chin to break their balance and reduce their striking power and ability to drive back into me while I draw my weapon to fire. Yes, my arm is out there and I just might pull a DA and shoot myself, but you won't do any better if you get knocked the F- out because you trained for the Happy Funtime Assault and get the Prison Rape Scene Assault instead.

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    SIXTO
    Firstly I would need to know if you were referring to only PDTV or all of the Firearm/Self~Defense shows in general before I can respond intelligently.

    Naturally a person needs to get past the obvious.
    Example: If Ruger is a show sponsor then (of course) no host is going to review the Ruger LCR and center a show around the LCR & say:
    "Look at this piece of cheap plastic garbage that Ruger is putting out now!" blah blah blah

    But, the reality is that the Ruger LCR is new, innovatively designed, different, & with totally redsigned internals and it is not total garbage.
    So....even a seasoned "gun loving" individual such as myself (or you) would naturally be curious about that offering by Ruger.
    A handgun that I have not had the chance to shoot yet.

    So...watchiing by the show...
    > I learn that Hogue teamed with Ruger to design a totally new grip for the LCR that features an internal shock absorbing polyner.

    > I see the process of breaking that revolver down to its main component parts. - Something that I cannot do just by walking into a gun shop. And it is a totally different major parts break-down that I've never seen before.

    > I get to hear from the designer at Ruger and find out exactly what they did to strengthen certain areas of the polymer frame to increase durability and longevity and how the redesigned lock work makes the trigger feel a couple of pounds lighter than it actually is.

    > I see that (maybe) since the internal design is SO radical that (for sure) a total disassembly is going to be a whole new experience away from a S&W J Frame.

    > I get to see a few folks actually shooting the revolver and I can tell a lot about how the amazing light gun recoils by watching that in slow-mo and pausing and rewinding the segment.

    The bottom line is that (for sure) you do not take every spoken word as gospel and (like everything else in life) you take what you need and leave the rest.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If you are talking only about PDTV then here are some Video shorts from actual shows.
    They are not just endlessly pimping products.

    Personal Defense TV

    A lot of the stuff is pretty basic BUT, it motivates folks (especially newbies) to get interested AKA to go and seek out more instruction.
    They get to see some techniques in advance so that they are far less "initially intimidated" and thus more apt to get better trained because they say: "Hey...I can probably DO that."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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    Been thinking about this for a few days now and I think that I see where my opinions differ from many of the firearms SD experts out there. I think that my long-term training in unarmed combatives of various types gives me a different approach than firearms instructors, especially those with military and LE experience.
    I haven't been specifically drilled in doing to guns to handle threats. I don't have the long-term basis of training that points to the gun being the solution to a given tactical situation so my first response is to look at a given situation for an unarmed or edged weapon solution with the potential of adding a firearm into the mix rather than what seems to be the typical firearms training theory of going to guns and adding unarmed/melee weapons if you are forced to. My limited firearms training also means that I will typically hesitate a bit more to go to a gun as I don't have the reflexive drawing of a firearm to accurate shooting from a correct shooting stance compared to most shooters with some training so I'm more inclined to make certain that I have the time to get the gun into play.
    Of course, this also gives me a few advantages over many defensive shooters in that I can see the "add strikes" bits like the one mentioned above as not being particularly effective. It also means that I will definitely be more inclined to handle a "too close to draw" threat with unarmed or edged tactics rather than getting myself KTFO or stabbed while wasting time by going for a handgun that won't do me any good until I handle the immediate threat anyway.

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    Although no longer currently a certified instructor, I have taken the Lindell method of handgun and long gun weapon retention and disarming techniques program. As threefeathers points out, Jim Lindell developed the best gun retention program in existence today.


    Lindell, James W.

    NLETC Board Advisor

    Jim Lindell joined the Kansas City, Missouri Police Department in October, 1970 as the Physical Training and Defensive Tactics Supervisor. He was hired for his ability to employ superior methods of control in handling police resistor and aggressor problems. He used his expertise in the field of martial arts to formulate practical and functional techniques for specific police problems. He developed and implemented a complete physical conditioning and defensive tactics program tailored to the needs and abilities of officers in training. The program was designed to provide maximum safety to the officer while minimizing the potential of harm to the subject.

    During that time Mr. Lindell developed several notable systems which have been recognized throughout the law enforcement community. His unique handgun retention system has earned him the title of "Father of Handgun Retention." He has worked closely with several manufacturers in developing training programs and better equipment for officers. He also developed the Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint System (LVNR®) which has never had a death attributed to its use. He has shared these and other innovative control and defense tactics with the rest of the police community by conducting training and certification seminars, and authoring a number of texts and articles.

    He is a U.S. Marine Corps combat veteran of the Korean War and is active with professional organizations committed to furthering law enforcement training. He was a Reserve Officer for the Kansas City, Missouri, Police Department for seven years. He served on the Board of Directors of the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers for 12 years and is a charter member of that organization. He is a third degree black belt in the United States Judo Association and is President of Odin Press, a police publishing and equipment provider; and the National Law Enforcement Training Center, an organization which certifies trainers in Handgun/Long Gun Retention and Disarming, Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint and other NLETC use of force systems.

    Mr. Lindell retired February 19, 1993 from the KCPD after 23 years of service and continues to work in the law enforcement field as a consultant and expert witness, and he coordinates training and certification seminars nationally and internationally for law enforcement agencies on a regular basis.

    On September 11, 2001 he began developing a comprehensive air travel safety program for peace officers, corrections, military, security and airline personnel to counter threats from terrorists and hijackers.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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