November 16th, 2009 11:11 PM
I'm curious about something. In another thread people were being critical of the type of grip a guy was using in a photo. I believe that the grip used while using a handgun would vary , depending on a person's comfort. I guess what i'm trying to say is, nobody grips a baseball bat,golf club or tennis raquet exaxtly the same as the next guy.
If I use a grip that works for me, shouldn't that be the grip I should use? Do you have to use a grip that (insert famous gun guru's name)reccomend ?
November 16th, 2009 11:17 PM
While a poor grip may work, a better grip is just better. People don't often know what they don't know. If you don't know your grip is poor and no one tells you, you'll never know.
Sure, there are different ways to grip a gun, but the physics of recoil control don't change and a "proper grip" is beneficial to all.
Having had a Bersa .380 such as the guy in the other thread, and having coached people using that Bersa, I can honestly say that tea cupping that thing is ineffective.
November 16th, 2009 11:18 PM
Shooting is as much science as it is art. There are different holds that work for different people, but there are also certain techniques which are proven to be effective. There's no one "best" way to hold it that works for absolutely everyone, but there definitely are wrong ways to hold it.
All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
November 16th, 2009 11:31 PM
Of course you may use whatever grip works best for you.
The others are actually trying to be helpful when being critical of the aforementioned thread in which an op was using a "tea cup" grip.
The Isosceles Stance and Weaver Stance have proven to be effective methods for teaching 1st time shooters to become proficient shooters. Mature instructors can identify problems and correct as needed.
If the shooter with the "Tea Cup" grip is wise enough to look beyond personal pride, then perhaps he could achieve greater accuracy using Isosceles Stance and/or Weaver Stance.
Odds are he is already a better shooter than me, but why not try and get better if it is possible.
I for one, am not satisfied with my marksmenship skills until I can shoot like Bob Munden.
November 17th, 2009 12:49 AM
look beyond personal pride
Originally Posted by CenCal
Guns dont kill people. people kill people
November 17th, 2009 01:00 AM
Of course there will always be adaptations for an individual's situation and conditions, but why tinker with what works? If his given stance is ineffective and can be made effective, that is the kind of advice you need to improve.
That's why I love DC, personally.
November 17th, 2009 09:11 AM
Yeah, I hear the same thing about stance and the latest is to be squared off to the subject. That's great if you have a vest, but just doesn't make sense to me. Anyway . . .
I'd say go with what works for you. Just experiment and pick one.
November 17th, 2009 10:02 AM
About as effective as gripping the strong wrist with the weak hand ...
Originally Posted by JD
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein
November 17th, 2009 06:17 PM
So a shooter should use "accepted" grip even if it isn't comfortable?
I also agree about the acceptable stance. Just because it works for SWAT or compition shooters doesn't mean it works in the real world.
November 17th, 2009 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by 21bubba
Yeah, because SWAT is just make believe right?
Here's the thing. Take Datsun's grip, it may "work" for him. But as far as grips go, it's about a step above useless. The support hand isn't supposed to be just a rest, it's supposed to help control the gun during recoil.
Your text book isosceles, weaver, whatever stance may not work perfectly for all, but they can serve as a starting point to find a modified position of such that does work for them.
If someone is using a comfortable grip and shooting like dog crap, maybe they need to try an uncomfortable grip, watch their groups improve and work on making the grip/stance comfortable.
I've seen people rant and rave up one side and down the other about how great their "stance" is and how they refuse to change, but when I see them shoot, the gun is jumping out of their hands and they can't hit jack squat. With a little adjustment and an open mind, their shooting improves.
Case in point.
Lima before instruction
Lima after some instruction
What happened in between those two pictures?
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...06-stance.html, more instruction, learning, and more range time.
Now prior to learning more, her accuracy was acceptable, and to her "worked just fine", but after some experimentation and LISTENING to other shooters/instructors, her performance improved 10 fold.
November 17th, 2009 08:36 PM
I'll throw this out there, if the accepted grip/hold makes the shooter more accurate and increases survivability, then comfort is a moot point.
Originally Posted by 21bubba
For CQB we are taught a way to move, hold/fire our weapons, and stand, that is rather uncomfortable, especially when doing it the first few times in full gear (about 40 pounds of body armor). Because of how it is taught and the effects it has, it increases survivability for a number of reasons.
If I was allowed to shoot the way I tried to when I started my urban combat training, it would reduce my survivability in combat, because I actually shoot better the trained way (and it still isn't comfortable all of the time). But, that is a choice I make so I can do my job more effectively (and for a person defending themselves the only job is to survive the encounter).
Of course, YMMV.
Fortes Fortuna Juvat
Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor
November 17th, 2009 08:54 PM
Since I am the shooter in question, I feel I should chime in with my views on the subject. I know that the grip I used was not the best grip that I could use but no one ever corrected it through my CCDW course and through 6 months of competitive steel shooting. However, that grip was comfortable for me even in rapid shooting. It was controllable with the small .380 round however now that I have stepped up to 9mm, I find my groups have opened up allot and I’m shooting about 10-12 inches low, it’s really bad. I was curious where this drop I was getting was coming from, now I am starting to think that my old style .380 powered grip is just not right for the higher powered 9mm. So I know that I need to work on it and will. Hopefully I will go from being in the bottom 2/3 of the shooters at the match to the top 1/3. We will see. Thanks
PS if anyone wants to ask a question of the reformed "tea-cupper" or wants to use the pictures feel free.
"The 280z, is more like a skittish, half broken bronco, that requires constant attention, challenges your driving ability and will literally ride the driver hard and put him away wet."
November 17th, 2009 10:06 PM
But you are correct,and It's easier to teach good shooting technique from the git go than to break bad habits and relearn a new stance/technique
Originally Posted by JD
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
November 17th, 2009 11:05 PM
"CCW Courses" aren't really about improving your skill set, but more about demonstrating you have a skill set to start with. Odds are you did well enough to let the instructor worry about the "problem student(s)" that really needed the help.
Originally Posted by Datsun40146
What are you shooting now? I know you mentioned it in another thread...but I don't remember.
However, that grip was comfortable for me even in rapid shooting. It was controllable with the small .380 round however now that I have stepped up to 9mm, I find my groups have opened up allot and Iím shooting about 10-12 inches low, itís really bad.
It's possible, I won't rule it out, I will say that if you've never had any formal instruction other than your CCW class, you may want to take a look at finding a local NRA Class to help fine tune and get a live pair of eyes watching what you do.
I was curious where this drop I was getting was coming from, now I am starting to think that my old style .380 powered grip is just not right for the higher powered 9mm.
Keeping an open mind is very important, you should try to be a constant student, trying to learn and improve. I'm 30 and have been shooting for 20+ years and I still learn more and more after every match and trip to the range. Seek out those top shooters at the steel match and watch them, talk to them, ask them to watch you and give you pointers.
So I know that I need to work on it and will. Hopefully I will go from being in the bottom 2/3 of the shooters at the match to the top 1/3. We will see. Thanks
It wasn't easy, finally I had to take a "hands off" approach and let her learn things on her own. I think her getting a job at the range is what paid off the most by getting her around more seasoned shooters.
Originally Posted by dukalmighty
November 18th, 2009 12:08 AM
I look at it this way - when have you ever been comfortable when getting better at something? All it costs to try is a few rounds and few minutes, if it makes you better, you'll learn to like it. Subtle differences in technique can pay huge dividends so why not try something new.
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