How small does your comfort zone get in relation to your training?
This is a discussion on How small does your comfort zone get in relation to your training? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Another member here posted about getting ongoing training vs. buying new toys. This got me thinking a little, having just returned from Vegas where I ...
November 17th, 2009 07:56 AM
How small does your comfort zone get in relation to your training?
Another member here posted about getting ongoing training vs. buying new toys. This got me thinking a little, having just returned from Vegas where I was unarmed and felt naked for the 4 days I was there.
I had a few incidents where my wife and I were approached at night by those I'd have rather not have approach me. Spidey sense kind of thing.
Anyhow. It has been said that the 21' rule is the average comfort zone for the average CC person. My Nevada CC instructor is disabled and his range is closer to 35'.
I'd prefer to hear from non LEO members here, as they (LEO) are required to get up close and personal with the occasional bad juju.
If you do get additional training, does the amount of additional training in combat firearm and H2H tactics reduce your comfort zone with those that trip the warning light in your head?
Not a hypothetical question.
I'd like to hear you what your range is where you would "order" a person approaching you to stop. In other words, what is your range given your training and abilities?
To keep the variables down, the person would be visually unarmed.
Last edited by Sticks; November 17th, 2009 at 08:03 AM.
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November 17th, 2009 08:10 AM
Now that I have had some training, my comfort zone is about 50'.
Just kidding, sort of. I realize more just how long it takes to actually deploy my weapon. I have read enough to know that handguns are lousy excuses for one-shot wonders. Just because I hit 'em doesn't mean they're quittin'.
In reality, if I have a bad feeling about someone, I don't want them closer than 10'. But that's almost impossible in many environments.
Unless I am going to move to Idaho or Montana (more sheep-baa baa kind-than people), I'm not generally going to be comfortable most of the time.
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
November 17th, 2009 08:11 AM
15' is my ABSOLUTE minimum, IF I have my hand near or on my weapon. AT 20 feet, I'd warm, "Stay back." "Go away." At 15, and he's still approaching, I'd draw and warn, "Stop or I will shoot you." Now, this isn't set in stone. If there are more than one, the danger zone distance goes up rapidly. If he's moving fast, I might not give the warning. His demeanor will make a difference, too. Is he menacing or just approaching. Defcon 5 can turn into Defcon 1 in a heartbeat as what seems to be a vagrant looking for a handout pulls a knife and demands money. If I have room and time, I might retreat while warning. If my wife and daughter are with me, the distance increases exponentially.
There are just so many variables to consider. No two situations are the same. Each situation and suspect must be QUICKLY evaluated and dealt with appropriately. In this day and time, we must assume the person wants to harm us. I've read statistics that panhandlers, vagrants, and the homeless are becoming more aggressive in their requests for money as the soup kitchens and flop houses run out of money and have to turn them away. Normal people who have been out of work for months and are looking at bankruptcy and foreclosures are becoming desperate.
Back to the OPs question. The distance will vary, but will never be less than the amount of time it takes me to draw and shoot.
November 17th, 2009 08:25 AM
Situation dependent.......the 21' rule is a really good guideline but if approached by somebody I do NOT want getting close it could be 21 feet, 50', or 10'. It just depends. I try to keep 'condition yellow' most of the time but when I focus on a 'potential' threat, 21 feet might or might not be an achieviable goal. When uncomfortable, regardless of distance, an order "get back" is given or I crawfish out a bit.
Within 'arms reach' is WAY too close in any 'uncomfortable' situation.
"Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008
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November 17th, 2009 10:36 AM
I really think that few of us are going to stop someone from approaching closer than 20 feet. I am a pastor and that means being in contact with people. Sometimes that contact is as little as 4-6 feet, that being a comfortable personal space distance. Of course that depends on whether I detect any ill intent on their part; naturally if I get the heebie jeebies I will get more space. Sometimes, though, it is the nature of the job that I am in close proximity with borderline personalities.
Now if someone is 6' away from you there is absolutely no way that you are going to be able to effectively deploy a sidearm as a first line of defense against attack. It just ain't happening! That is where unarmed combat skills come in handy. I study American Kenpo (green belt currently under Lawrence Robinson, student of Skip Hancock, student of Ed Parker...trust me, I know I am not Chuck Norris) for those situations, and my motto is "Springfield from 12' out, kenpo from 12' in."
November 17th, 2009 08:49 PM
Visually armed eh? That takes the guesswork out of it. Range? From the moment I see they are visually armed and coming toward me. 20/20 vision and alert on life. Minimal 'acceptable' training.
November 17th, 2009 08:50 PM
Comfort zones depend upon the situation. One certainly cannot stay 21 feet away from others in WW World, but in a WW parking lot, I closely watch for 'interviewers' and 'panhandlers'...all are warned to stay back at about 15 feet and I want to be able to put a car or other obstacles between us. Only on a few ocassions have I had to remind others that I was not interested in 'playing' any games.
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November 18th, 2009 01:00 PM
If you get within 4 steps of me and I don't know you my hair bristles.
November 18th, 2009 03:15 PM
My personal "space" is a radius of around 5-9 feet.
Using the OODA Loop as a guideline I always try Orient myself to my surroundings (yellow) and Observe what is happening. If someone or something raises my antenna I Decide what I am going to do (orange) if necessary and then if I need to Act or not (red).
This is an ongoing process. I try to never let my guard down but if I said I was at "orange" 100% of the time I would be lying.
Statistics say that someone can cover the distance of 21 feet anywhere between 1.8 and 1.5 seconds. I don't think I could go through life and tell everyone that gets within 21' of me. "Please don't come any closer to me".
"In a crisis, you will not rise to the occasion, but you will default to the level of your training."
November 18th, 2009 04:27 PM
My own life experience is my own.
Others are their own.
And then there are professionals paid to risk their lives such as LEOs, military, 'security' personnel.
As based on my own life experiences in total as to current, my own 'comfort zone' as you define it varies greatly as based on conditions.
Many multiple conditions.
Am I alone? [Best case scenario. I can take care of me and I know how I will act and react under conditions. No surprises. I know from past experiences that when all else fails I can absolutely depend on me, myself, and I. I trust me more than anyone.]
Where am I? [Location and environmental conditions]
Who am I with? [Wife who is slow off the X and is by nature and life view non-violent in belief, kids who are small aged 6 and 3 and thus cannot evac effectively on their own as individuals, or am I with an adult male or female...]
What clothing am I wearing? [Street clothes or business wear such as as suit which is more difficult to fight in.]
What shoes am I wearing? [Much more difficult to evac/run in dress shoes. I learned this lesson directly per past experience.]
Am I wearing glasses or contacts? [I wear my glasses most often to work events and business meetings. Otherwise I'm in contacts. I know from experience that glasses are a weakness that is easy to exploit and quite effective. I've learned the hard way and painful way to protect and defend that weakness with stand off distance.]
What is my physical condition at the moment? [Full belly or empty belly optimal. Feeling 100% or under the weather. Am I simply just not in the mood today/at the moment for no mess (!) or am I feeling jovial happy go lucky. Mood directly affects decision making and by that threat analysis and skill in doing so, with accuracy. Again past experience direct as well as by direct observation of others who won and/or lost.]
I could go on but bottom line it's a long and wide list of IF/THEN and AND/OR conditional items that make up the whole of my own program of sorts.
For example again as be learned experience and now ingrained habit, when ever I walk out of ANY door way as into a public area I will notably stop what I'm doing and scan 280 degrees. I do this if I am talking with someone in the immediate or whatever. I will stop to eye glance and head move to check typically my left side first followed immediately with a head move scan to my right followed by a forward arc scan.
I learned the hard way to do this as going back to K-12 in school for being jumped or getting the jump on others. Prey or be prey, and pray.
Same learned by observation on the streets. To which now is hard wired to my brain. I don't think I could undo it now even if I had desire to try.
This though does draw attention every so often from persons with me including my wife who thinks I am just flat out odd/weird as well as others who me who might ask; "Were you looking for something?". My general canned response to that has been "Nope, nothing at all."
Truthfully I don't have a comfort zone.
Am I perpetually uncomfortable?
My wife would say yes. My kids would say 'Huh?'. I say not, not at all.
Having no comfort zone is for me to my own view and life experience, a comfort. It is my normal.
Does that make me paranoid?
Nope, not at all. Just aware and observant of my surroundings.
I haven't had a direct danger situation occur to me in roughly 4 yrs. But I have no logical reason as based on past experiences to believe that as much would be my last in life.
Nosa mentions an item as a tag along called 'personal space'.
I am again by life experience stingy and protective of my personal space.
I actively maintain distance from people to a degree that I don't even think of it anymore, except for when persons of any gender goes beyond my comfort zone.
That for me is an arm lengths distance. My arms are ~32" in length.
In general as to strangers and people I know by name but not well, I am not comfortable with them being within my own personal space as at arms length.
It happens a lot though and isn't always avoidable. That's life.
But I do consciously detect when it happens a little thought flag pops up in my mindseye of this person is "close".
To which as based on conditions I'll either supress the thought or act on it as following my life experience based IF/THEN and AND/OR conditional act/react programming.
Basically as with any being (man or animal) who I see or condition I have enough sense to become a concern, I will as a general rule remove myself from that situation.
I used to be a stand and fight kind of guy. No more. I know what I'm made of.
Besides I've got kids and responsibilities and hopefully another day of life to live.
No longer interested in seeking out trouble or taking on a challenge as simply for the challenge of it.
I've got other stuff to do and think about like getting home in time for dinner with my kids to hear about how their day went down.
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
November 18th, 2009 08:42 PM
I hate crowds. If I am on an empty street or road I will go out of my way to avoid meeting another person (30'-50'), in a crowded room I try and keep 10' away from other people. I make it a point to avoid areas where there are crowds.
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