Be Honest - Page 3

Be Honest

This is a discussion on Be Honest within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Ram Rod I see an open opportunity here, but I'm going to refrain and be the better person I should be. I'm ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    I see an open opportunity here, but I'm going to refrain and be the better person I should be. I'm almost sure you'll remain to be puzzled over this one. That's good right? Cause you sound like a problem solver.
    Not sure what you mean by open opportunity on this. It make no sense to me that they (LEOS) would not practice. You would think with life depending on it, you would become the best you can with your weapon. I know that the practice I do benefits me a my family.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......


  2. #32
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    I shoot an average of 800 rds per month, many more than the average LEO. Some Depts. are great at furnishing as many rounds as you want. Some are not so good. I'm on eof the lucky ones.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
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  3. #33
    Member Array Orange Boy's Avatar
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    The range I go to (1-2X per week) has a lot of police that practice there. My experience is that about 10% are excellent shots, maintain safe and expert gun handling skills and make me truly want to aspire to their level. Then there are the 10% at the bottom that are accidents waiting to happen. I've seen them hit the ceiling with fire, sweep the room with a loaded weapon, carry loaded from one port to another, try to clear a jam with the barrel pointed at another shooters feet. And the list goes on. The range officer there does a good job of staying on top of this, but the first offense is usually committed before he can step in and correct the situation. The other 80%, to me, seems to be somewhere in the middle. This is not meant to bash LE, as I have certainly seen civilians pull some bonehead moves also, but since this thread deals with the former, I thought I'd add my observations. I also used to think that all cops were gun guys/gals. I learned a long time ago that this was not even close.

  4. #34
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomTrain View Post
    I was wondering how many in law enforcement regularly practice shooting between qualifications? I have been told that other then SWAT team members some officers rarely shoot at all between qualifications. If this is true, would it be due to budget constraints, personal choice or both? Are civilians training more than LE or am I all wet?
    Some Cops would rather play softball or play golf than go out on their own time and do some additional training. This includes shooting, martial arts training or physical exercise. You would think because of the dangers of the job officers would take training more serious but most don't. The average law enforcement agency makes their officers weapons qualify every three months...some every six months. This is difinitely not enough training wouldn't you agree?

    Now if the civilians you are referring to are going to a training facility that offers qualified training with certified instructors versus going to an open field and shooting at beer cans...then I would say yes to your question.
    Last edited by black knife; December 7th, 2009 at 02:59 AM.

  5. #35
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    I shoot a lot. It is nothing for me to shoot several hundred rounds a week through various guns.

    I usally breeze through the required quals without much effort. I am the exception to the rule though, most of the others cant shoot as well.

    One thing of interest though, most of our Reserves shoot better than most of our full timers.

    Just a few days ago I practiced drawing and dumping full mag loads on steel B27 targets.To me it is fun. To others it is work.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey y'all: Do not know numbers but I go every other week to a gunshop/shooting range in the Charleston, SC area and almost every time I am there, a number of LEO's from police to Homeland Security to border patrol, to other officers with firearms are there. In some instances, the officers may actually practice with the somewhat common changeover on their weapons from 9mm or 45 to 22 LRs. Glock and Sig, for example have kits that are easily adaptable to the main firearm; its still the LEO's firearm but practice $$$ are a whole lot less

  7. #37
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Boy View Post
    The range I go to (1-2X per week) has a lot of police that practice there. My experience is that about 10% are excellent shots, maintain safe and expert gun handling skills and make me truly want to aspire to their level. Then there are the 10% at the bottom that are accidents waiting to happen. I've seen them hit the ceiling with fire, sweep the room with a loaded weapon, carry loaded from one port to another, try to clear a jam with the barrel pointed at another shooters feet. And the list goes on. The range officer there does a good job of staying on top of this, but the first offense is usually committed before he can step in and correct the situation. The other 80%, to me, seems to be somewhere in the middle. This is not meant to bash LE, as I have certainly seen civilians pull some bonehead moves also, but since this thread deals with the former, I thought I'd add my observations. I also used to think that all cops were gun guys/gals. I learned a long time ago that this was not even close.
    I agree with you 100%....most people believe that because a person is a LEO that they are automatically good with a firearms...this is far from the truth....I had worked with people that could barely qualify when it came to gun quals.....some of these individuals I did not want them to back me on calls....I was more worried about them than the bad guys...but due to lack of interest in law enforcement recruitment was slacking so standards were lowered...this is a major problem with alot of agencies.
    "You fight the way you Train"

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    I have a good friend who is a RO for a Federal agency. According to him the more senior they are the harder time they have qualifying.
    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato

  9. #39
    Member Array Kenny256's Avatar
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    When my brother was in training for LEO he told me all these stories.
    And the whole time Im thinking and these are the people who I depend on.
    (He shot top gun by the way )

    He also says that most of the guys rarley shoot...

    its kind of sad, but thats why I have taught myself not to need them 100% of the time.
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    The Dalai Lama:"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun."

  10. #40
    Member Array Gunnyjeep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beans View Post
    Background: before becoming a LEO I spend time in the USMC Infantry --1961-1971 (SSGT, Med Ret) and a couple of combat tours is SVN.

    I think this give me a different kind of mind set on become and remaining proficient with the weapons of my profession.

    The shooting skill with a handgun can deteriorate rather quickly, more quicly for some people then others. Your mind will tell you, you can, but your muscle memory will/can show you--- you can't.

    Until your start practicing again.
    You are so right.

    I work Diplomatic Security in Iraq, we only have to qualify once a year but I would say that 90% of those I work with hit the range at least once a week (the others at least once every couple of months). Heck we loaded up a couple of cases of 9mm, 5.56 and 7.62 today in hopes that we can hit the range tomorrow (hard sometimes since it gets dark here at 1700 hrs).
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  11. #41
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    Just because they are LEOs doesn't mean they are gun oriented people. I have read in several places that some LEOs are lousy shots. If you are one of those who practice or shoot twice a year to qualify I don't see how you can be proficient with a firearm. I wonder how many LEOs carry concealed on off duty hours.

  12. #42
    Member Array tunes's Avatar
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    One of my good friends is a cop and he seems to be an exception from some of what people here say.

    1. He doesn't live in the same city he works in
    2. He carries while off-duty
    3. He owns several other firearms
    4. Although he doesn't get to the range "as often as he'd like", he still makes it happen every month or so.

    If he's going to be in a dangerous profession, I would prefer he be this way.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array Bob O's Avatar
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    I believe that the following statistics apply in ALL professions (including LEOs).

    In each profession there are those that are masters at what they do. They study and spend sometimes large chunks of personal time to be really good at what they do. They are dedicated to excellence.
    This is about 10% of those in any particular profession.

    There are those that are pretty good at what they do but don't spend much time or energy trying to be better. They put in their time and that's about it.
    This is about 70% of those in any particular profession.

    There are those that are really bad at what they do and don't care.
    This is about 20% of those in any particular profession.

    Unfortunately, this also true of doctors, lawyers, politicians, and everyone else we really hope to count on.

    When you need someone the chances are that those that fall in the 70% category are ones you will get;
    second best bet, the 20% category;
    and good luck trying to find anybody in the 10% category (they are so rare).


    How does this relate to this post? Only about 10% of LEO's will spend their own time trying to become more proficient at their job - this includes shooting.

    Bobo
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other"
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  14. #44
    Member Array FreedomTrain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob O View Post
    I believe that the following statistics apply in ALL professions (including LEOs).

    In each profession there are those that are masters at what they do. They study and spend sometimes large chunks of personal time to be really good at what they do. They are dedicated to excellence.
    This is about 10% of those in any particular profession.

    There are those that are pretty good at what they do but don't spend much time or energy trying to be better. They put in their time and that's about it.
    This is about 70% of those in any particular profession.

    There are those that are really bad at what they do and don't care.
    This is about 20% of those in any particular profession.

    Unfortunately, this also true of doctors, lawyers, politicians, and everyone else we really hope to count on.

    When you need someone the chances are that those that fall in the 70% category are ones you will get;
    second best bet, the 20% category;
    and good luck trying to find anybody in the 10% category (they are so rare).


    How does this relate to this post? Only about 10% of LEO's will spend their own time trying to become more proficient at their job - this includes shooting.

    Bobo
    Thanks Bobo, I think that you have clearly stated a overlooked fact about human nature. I am sure that those with more than two or three siblings could see this in their own families.
    "In a moment of crisis you will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training". http://www.FreedomTrainerTarget.com

  15. #45
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    I can really speak to this issue. I was a Deputy in KC a long while back, but no too long. :D When I went through the academy there were folks who had never fired a gun in their life. The one gal actually started crying and shaking when she stepped up to the firing line, she was so scared. In the previous class, a gal who had never shot before inadvertently double-tapped her Glock with the quick reset trigger and grazed a valley in her own forehead coming off the recoil. She used to be a pretty gal. Now she's just luck her brain-housing group is still intact.

    We had range days on Saturday. The training officer would go out to the range (only about a 15 min drive) and be the RSO and provide ammo. Out of over 300 cops there would only ever be about 10 guys shooting.

    Me and a few of my shift partners would shoot a good couple hundred rounds a month at a local indoor range that gave us free range time as LEOs and a discount on ammo. But we were the exception.

    The scary thing is nearly all of the dept carried off duty. It was department policy (I'm assuming because of attitudes that there were plenty who ignored this) that we do so. So you have 300 people running around the city armed who have virtually no training or experience whatsoever. And these are the folks you are supposed to rely on. Okay, whatever.

    It made me so disgusted that I quit and joined the Marine Corps where I knew they took shooting seriously.
    NRA Certified Instructor (6 years)
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    Glock 17, Kel-Tec P-11, S&W Model 60, various rifles

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humans do not rise up to the occasion but rather revert to level of training

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in a crisis, you will not rise to the occasion, but merely default to your level of training.

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who stated: in a moment of crisis you will not rise to the occasion, but merely default to your level of training

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?in a moment of crisis?you will not rise to the occasion?...... you will default to your level of training?

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?in a moment of crisis?you will not rise to the occasion?.?. you will default to your level of training?.

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