Permit exemptions - carrying concealed to attend a gun safety/training class

This is a discussion on Permit exemptions - carrying concealed to attend a gun safety/training class within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm doing some research regarding exemptions that states have to carry a concealed handgun without a permit. Virginia for example has exemptions like, going to ...

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Thread: Permit exemptions - carrying concealed to attend a gun safety/training class

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array ProShooter's Avatar
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    Permit exemptions - carrying concealed to attend a gun safety/training class

    I'm doing some research regarding exemptions that states have to carry a concealed handgun without a permit. Virginia for example has exemptions like, going to a shooting range, member of a weapon collecting organization, etc.

    I'm looking for wording in the various state's statutes that allow someone to carry a concealed firearm without a permit while attending a firearms training/safety class.

    Anyone?

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  3. #2
    JD
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    Where did you hear that it's legal to carry while to going to/from a range etc?

    The law reads as such:

    18.2-308


    § 18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature.

    B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.

    Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:

    1. Any person while in his own place of business;

    2. Any law-enforcement officer, wherever such law-enforcement officer may travel in the Commonwealth;

    3. Any regularly enrolled member of a target shooting organizationwho is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;

    4. Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;
    You can not carry concealed to or from these activities without a permit in VA.

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Texas allows people to carry concealed guns in their vehicles without a permit
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    In Utah, anyone (including non residents), who can legally posses a gun, can have it loaded and concealed inside their vehicle without a permit.

    No other exemptions

    OC is legal however.
    Last edited by sigmanluke; November 30th, 2009 at 03:41 PM. Reason: more info
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    Ex Member Array ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Where did you hear that it's legal to carry while to going to/from a range etc?

    The law reads as such:

    18.2-308



    You can not carry concealed to or from these activities without a permit in VA.
    Incorrect. You CAN carry concealed in those circumstances outlined in subsection B, without a permit if you meet the exact criteria described. That's what an exemption is.

    I remember reading some state's statute that specifically said that you could carry concealed w/o a permit if you were attending a gun safety/training class. That's what I'm looking for.

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    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Incorrect. You CAN carry concealed in those circumstances outlined in subsection B, without a permit if you meet the exact criteria described. That's what an exemption is.

    I remember reading some state's statute that specifically said that you could carry concealed w/o a permit if you were attending a gun safety/training class. That's what I'm looking for.
    I don't think unloaded and "securely wrapped" = concealed. True, I don't see a definition of "securely wrapped" but odds are one could end up as a test case if found out.

    I would advise against carrying a gun concealed on one's person in VA without a permit.

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    Ex Member Array ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    I don't think unloaded and "securely wrapped" = concealed. True, I don't see a definition of "securely wrapped" but odds are one could end up as a test case if found out.

    I would advise against carrying a gun concealed on one's person in VA without a permit.
    Trust me, I'm in Virginia. I know of what I speak. My 12 years of LE experience and the fact that I teach this every day in Virginia backs up what I'm saying. The exemptions are normal and are clearly defined in the Code. As long as you meet the exemption in subsection B, you are fine. There is no statutory definition of "securely wrapped" so its more of a common sense thing.

    Getting into this discussion is not the purpose of my post. I'm not even sure why this is a question. I'm simply looking for other states that have wording about carrying to a gun safety class. I know I have read the wording in some state's law and I can't recall which one.

  9. #8
    JD
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    The issue is that it seems like bad advice and we don't like seeing bad advice passed around here, having lived and taught in VA it doesn't sound like a good idea.

    Like I said, while there's no definition of securely wrapped, common sense would be to err on the side of caution and not have the gun on your person.

  10. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    The issue is that it seems like bad advice and we don't like seeing bad advice passed around here, having lived and taught in VA it doesn't sound like a good idea.

    Like I said, while there's no definition of securely wrapped, common sense would be to err on the side of caution and not have the gun on your person.
    Its got nothing to do with bad advice. Its got to do what what the law allows.

    I can walk around my front yard, or my business with a concealed handgun and no permit. I can be a member of IDPA and enroute to a shooting range with the gun unloaded and securely wrapped without a permit, no problem. I can be a member of the ABC antique gun collecting organization and be coming back from an exhibition without a permit. That's what the exemptions are for - to exempt people in certain specific circumstances.

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    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    Its got nothing to do with bad advice. Its got to do what what the law allows.

    I can walk around my front yard, or my business with a concealed handgun and no permit. I can be a member of IDPA and enroute to a shooting range with the gun unloaded and securely wrapped without a permit, no problem. I can be a member of the ABC antique gun collecting organization and be coming back from an exhibition without a permit. That's what the exemptions are for - to exempt people in certain specific circumstances.
    I agree with both PROShooter but agree more with JD.

    If its legal sure do it. However, there is a flip side to this.

    Laws are not written for the average joe. They are written for guys that hold Law degrees and for police officers to interpret them to the best of their recollection in the heat of the moment.

    Good firearms training teaches alot about avoidance, one of those avoidance lessons is avoidance from getting into trouble were trouble is not needed, whether its a shooting, or how to interact with Law Enforcement. We as instructors want to see are students stay out of problems rather then try to take them on expecially when they are new to the game. For example: While it is completely legal to tell your side of the story to a Law enforcement officer after a "Good Shoot". I still would advise somebody not to do so. For somebody wearing a RKBA hat on their head, the legality of something maybe more appealing from the simple stand point its "legal" however, sometimes in the moment, its better to avoid something, If you choose not to and go the "legal" route this may also come with consequence. Those consequences such as being hassled or detained could have been simply been avoided if one just decides to get a permit. If your the type that wears the RKBA hat and doesn't mind being hassled and stopped and questioned then whom am I to say that its wrong. However, I personally would rather avoid the hassle and maintain a lower profile.

    However, I believe we are talking about giving this type of advice to new gun people while wearing an instructor hat, this example is so fine line that it could be done improperly, expecially to somebody who is new to the shooting community. Virginia for example: If one attains a permit then one is completly exempt from this; therefore, get the permit and this isn't a big deal. Therefore, I would avoid bringing this up this topic in any course I did, plus IANAL and if I intrpret it incorrectly then there could be some liabilities for me as the instructor.

    Sometimes we have to take a look at which hat we are wearing. As, I'm assuming both JD and Proshooter are instructors. Are we wearing an "Instructor hat or do we have our RKBA hat on" unfortunetly sometimes the two may conflict.
    “Are you a thermometer or a thermostat, do you reflect or become what is happening in the room or do you change the atmosphere, reset the temperature when you come into the room”?--Chuck Swindoll

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  12. #11
    Ex Member Array ProShooter's Avatar
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    I'm totally lost.

    This thread is not about whether carrying with or without a permit under various circumstances is wise, legal, smart, stupid, whatever. Nor is about whether or not it is a good idea to teach that.

    My question simply is, again.....Can anyone point me to a state statute anywhere in the U.S. that allows a person to carry a concealed handgun without a permit while going to or from a gun safety class? I'm not interested in whether or not its a good idea, just if it is in fact a law that allows it anywhere.

    That's it. Not interested in opinions on why its a good idea or bad....just looking for info on a law that may be on the books somewhere.

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    I'm just curious as to why you're so interested in this? Explanation please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmanluke View Post
    I'm just curious as to why you're so interested in this? Explanation please.
    Because there is talk of introducing just such an exemption at the Virginia General Assembly and many of us feel that its a good idea. It would be nice if we could show a precedent set by another state. I'm sure that I read about one state that has this but I can't recall which one...there may be more than one.

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    Washington State is close to what are looking for:
    Public Search - Washington State Legislature
    RCW 9.41.050
    Carrying firearms.


    (1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

    (2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

    (3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

    (b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

    (4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.
    RCW 9.41.060
    Exceptions to restrictions on carrying firearms.


    The provisions of RCW 9.41.050 shall not apply to:

    (1) Marshals, sheriffs, prison or jail wardens or their deputies, or other law enforcement officers of this state or another state;

    (2) Members of the armed forces of the United States or of the national guard or organized reserves, when on duty;

    (3) Officers or employees of the United States duly authorized to carry a concealed pistol;

    (4) Any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, repairing, or dealing in firearms, or the agent or representative of the person, if possessing, using, or carrying a pistol in the usual or ordinary course of the business;

    (5) Regularly enrolled members of any organization duly authorized to purchase or receive pistols from the United States or from this state;

    (6) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of target shooting, when those members are at or are going to or from their places of target practice;

    (7) Regularly enrolled members of clubs organized for the purpose of modern and antique firearm collecting, when those members are at or are going to or from their collector's gun shows and exhibits;

    (8) Any person engaging in a lawful outdoor recreational activity such as hunting, fishing, camping, hiking, or horseback riding, only if, considering all of the attendant circumstances, including but not limited to whether the person has a valid hunting or fishing license, it is reasonable to conclude that the person is participating in lawful outdoor activities or is traveling to or from a legitimate outdoor recreation area;

    (9) Any person while carrying a pistol unloaded and in a closed opaque case or secure wrapper; or

    (10) Law enforcement officers retired for service or physical disabilities, except for those law enforcement officers retired because of mental or stress-related disabilities. This subsection applies only to a retired officer who has: (a) Obtained documentation from a law enforcement agency within Washington state from which he or she retired that is signed by the agency's chief law enforcement officer and that states that the retired officer was retired for service or physical disability; and (b) not been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of a crime making him or her ineligible for a concealed pistol license.
    eschew obfuscation

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  16. #15
    Ex Member Array ProShooter's Avatar
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    Thank you CopperKnight...close, but not exactly what I was looking for.

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