Gun Retention - Page 2

Gun Retention

This is a discussion on Gun Retention within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Yup, as threefeathers says, you can get a very good foundation in weapons retention through LFI 2 and LFI 3. Marty Hayes also teaches Lindell ...

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Thread: Gun Retention

  1. #16
    pax
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    Yup, as threefeathers says, you can get a very good foundation in weapons retention through LFI 2 and LFI 3. Marty Hayes also teaches Lindell system as a stand-alone class through the Firearms Academy of Seattle, both basic & advanced.

    The beautiful thing about any of these classes is that they put you in touch with lots of like-minded people who've had the same basic instruction. What you do about that is up to you, of course -- but I find, every once in awhile, I just get this awful urge to get together with people I know and trust so we can beat each other up a little. Lotsa fun!

    pax
    Kathy Jackson
    My website: Cornered Cat


  2. #17
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post
    Hopyard,

    With all due respect....In MY opinion anyone who can not fight to retain their firearm...Should not carry it. I promise you if you get into a struggling match with a perp for your gun, you my friend are going to the ground and if you are not prepared then don't carry a gun. If you can not control it ….you will loose it.
    All too often people fall into the false sense of security ….that if I have a gun nothing will happen to me….If you are in a fight and you have a gun you are in a gun fight. More importantly you are in a fight for your life. You can never say that tactic won’t work for me….There are (3) things that will enable you to win a fight
    SPEED, SURPIZE AND VIOLNCE OF ACTION.

    If you have a gun and the bad guy dose not…….He WILL try and take it from you…if he succeeds you just caused your own death.

    Combat Mindset. You will be surprised what you can or will do when your life is on the line.

    I would rather break a bone and live ….then not and die.

    Just my 2 cents
    I can't see an untrained person going to the ground. I mean with all the UFC fights showing on T.V. alot of individuals are gaining knowledge about the "Ground and Pound" strategy. Being on the ground is the worst place for someone that has no groundfighting skills....especially with a holstered weapon. I dont' know who came up with these techniques but it seems they need to come up with something better than what was suggested.
    "You fight the way you Train"

  3. #18
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    All the suggestions here could have a use in some situation or another. You can't really say one will work better than the other etc. without having a lot of specifics.There could be a million scenarios to what someone would do in a certain situation, and what would work for me might not work for you.

    My suggestion would be to fill up on all the techniques you can find and hopefully one of them will work should a "situation" arise.
    When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
    The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
    - Thomas Jefferson

  4. #19
    Member Array black knife's Avatar
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    I think I am going to make a little video for people on this forum that want to learn some easy but effective gun retention techniques....these will be the same techniques I have shown in my seminars.
    "You fight the way you Train"

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by black knife View Post
    I can't see an untrained person going to the ground. I mean with all the UFC fights showing on T.V. alot of individuals are gaining knowledge about the "Ground and Pound" strategy. Being on the ground is the worst place for someone that has no groundfighting skills....especially with a holstered weapon. I dont' know who came up with these techniques but it seems they need to come up with something better than what was suggested.

    "You fight the way you Train" Right?

  6. #21
    Sponsor Array DCJS Instructor's Avatar
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    $0.02

    In my Officer survival class...which I teach to civilians who carry a handgun. We do the (2) minute fight for life, An instructor in a red man suite tries to take your gun and anything goes "Just like on the street" 98% of the time it goes to the ground. Most say it is the longest 2 min of their life.

    Most gain a healthy respect for any type of fight skills. I believe Robert Tillman wrote: You will not rise to the occasion...... you will default to your level of training......So how good is your training.

    I am very leery of any Instructor who says always do this......or never do that....What I teach is a way not the way.

    However please note I think you are getting to hung up on going to the ground.

    Any good firearms instructor I ever met talked about gaining some type of hand to hand skill. Gun fights happen fast and close. You don't know what you don't know. People are always afraid of what they don’t know or understand.

    Stay Safe and in condition yellow.

  7. #22
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    You won't live if you break a bone

    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post
    Hopyard,
    I would rather break a bone and live ….then not and die.
    Just my 2 cents
    You won't survive if you break a bone trying that maneuver you described, or if you dislocate your shoulder doing that roll.

    It would work great on a mat in the gym. It might work great on grass on or sand.

    Try it on a sidewalk and I think most folks will not like the results.

    Look, if the typical civilian CHL/CWP holder had the athleticism you are talking about combined with the ground fighting/combat skills and dynamic gymnastic ability you are talking about, maybe they wouldn't even feel compelled to carry.

    I'm no 16 year old gymnast and I won't pretend that I am. I'm no 21 year old jock, either.

    I need techniques that will work for who I am, otherwise they are useless.

    Looking forward to additional comments from others on how to deal with the combat situation you are describing. I have my own ideas, but sure would like to hear from others before chiming in (if at all).

  8. #23
    pax
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    Hopyard,

    Good post.

    I'm awfully glad that I took a gun retention class from someone who refuses to teach techniques that will not work for ordinary people, with the ordinary collection of human weaknesses. "Does this technique pass the 'Bambi versus Godzilla test'?" is the question of the day. That is, can the smallest and weakest person in the class effectively use that technique to successfully retain or retrieve the firearm from the strongest and most capable person present? If not, it has little utility in the real world where predators usually do not attack people who appear equal in size or strength to themselves, but instead prey on the small, weak, or disabled.

    I have deep doubts as to the utility of a technique which requires someone to risk deliberately maiming himself for life when there are other, better options so readily available. Avoid unnecessary personal injury: Now there's a true combat mindset!

    "Don't carry it unless you can fight without it" is just plain unrealistic, especially when used to promote techniques that will not realistically work for people who are not young, strong, and flexible. It's absolutely true that people who carry a gun should know how to defend and retain the gun, but the techniques they use to do that should recognize -- not just recognize, but be centered around the recognition -- that many people carry firearms to defend themselves despite physical infirmities and deficiencies.

    Because of this, I suggest that most of us should avoid wasting time on flashy, mat-based techniques that require a lot of physical strength and agility.

    Similarly, avoid techniques that rely for their effectiveness on pain compliance, strikes or blows. The problem with striking and pain compliance techniques is that they assume the BG will comply with simple pain, or will never be able or willing to absorb more punishment than you are physical able to deliver. Anyone who's ever taken a blow to the face and gotten fighting mad knows this is not always true!

    Look instead for classes that emphasize techniques designed to maximize limited strength, using timeless, powerful principles of leverage and balance to control the firearm and destroy the opponent. Once you've learned the principles, you can later add strikes or blows to these techniques without sacrificing effectiveness. Think of strikes and blows as little "value added" bonuses, not as the centerpiece of your gun retention efforts.

    pax
    Kathy Jackson
    My website: Cornered Cat

  9. #24
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    Krav maga anyone????
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array threefeathers's Avatar
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    after 5 days with Mas, i couldn't take Pax's gun away, in fact she almost broke my finger. Jim Lyndel's system works folks.
    I plan to spend the weekend with my son as a dummy.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    DCJS Instructor said,
    "With all due respect....In MY opinion anyone who can not fight to retain their firearm...Should not carry it."

    I do not believe that you have given that statement much thought. Let us take a man of 77 who has cardiovascular disease that would result in being incapacitated in a few seconds.

    So by your thinking he should not carry a firearm, but should just be satisfied to be a victim?
    Surely you jest.

    Regards,
    Jerry

  12. #27
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    I am a gun and knife person, meaning I have always carried a knife as a back up weapon on and off duty. I believe the most effective gun retention techniques involve the use of a knife. The knife is an equalizer, allowing smaller and weaker individuals to combat the strength and size of bigger assailants.

    If you carry a gun then you probably have come to the conclusion that you might have to take some ones life in defense of you or a loved one. A knife is just another piece of equipment for accomplishing this same task. So why not learn to use a knife for retaining your firearm. I mean if someone is trying to take your gun then he obviously is doing so to cause you great bodily injury or death. Therefore stabbing or cutting him would be justifiable as shooting him.

    Now for the law enforcement community things are a little different. Would you imagine what people would say if they knew that their local police department was teaching its officers on the use of the knife in a defensive and offensive manner? Citizens would be outraged and that is why most agencies consider a knife as a tool and not a defensive weapon.

    So someone in my business has to be able come up with defensive techniques that would be effective for both groups, civilian and law enforcement.
    "You fight the way you Train"

  13. #28
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    My $0.02

    Someone who I respect (Bruce N. Eimer PhD.) wrote an article about Handgun Retention techniques.

    It is called: ARMED SENIOR CITIZEN (How to hold on to your gun weapons retention means survival) see the full article here:

    http://www.personaldefensesolutions....ntoYourGun.pdf

    I think it was written for US Concealed Carry Magazine. It discusses the Lindell Weapon Retention System.

    One part of the article stuck in my head. I would like to share it with you:

    "It is also very important to maintain an appropriate level of physical
    fitness: strength, speed, flexibility and cardiovascular endurance. You will need all of these resources in a fight."

    What do I know.....It's just me $0.02 worth. However while I respect what others have posted in this section I still stand by every word I said. The problem with the internet is everyone is an expert.

    Rant over!

  14. #29
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    re:DCJS

    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post
    One part of the article stuck in my head. I would like to share it with you:
    "It is also very important to maintain an appropriate level of physical
    fitness: strength, speed, flexibility and cardiovascular endurance. You will need all of these resources in a fight."

    Rant over!
    So, let me just say that at nearly 67 I try to do exactly as you suggest above. It costs me a fortune to work out 3 hours a week with a 25 year old MMA/Krav instructor. Still, there is no way I'm going to make the move you suggested. Sure, there are plenty of 17 year olds with the flexibility, speed, and strength who maybe can pull that one off, but then they aren't supposed to be carrying.

    Also, I guess I'm an exception. You won't find too many guys my age getting regular exercise, let alone MA instruction on a regular basis. I know guys 20-25 years younger who carry, but lack the ability to fight, or the inclination to learn how.

    Shortly after I got my CHL 8 years ago I realized that something else was needed to go with it. And that is some H2H skills. Unfortunately, lots of older folks just can't begin to do this stuff. It is wishful thinking that the typical CHL/CWP holder will do what you have suggested regarding "maintain an appropriate level of physical
    fitness: strength, speed, flexibility and cardiovascular endurance."

    Oh, one more point before I bow out of the discussion. You talked about 2 minute fight drills. Uh, one of the first things my first instructor (not the 25 y.o. young guy) told me was, "a fight is 2-3 seconds. Go watch Bourne Identity."

    Who in the world, where in the civilian world, will anyone ever go at it for that length of time? Life and real world fights aren't choreographed Hollywood stuff that go on until the next advertisement.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor View Post
    Someone who I respect (Bruce N. Eimer PhD.) wrote an article about Handgun Retention techniques.

    It is called: ARMED SENIOR CITIZEN (How to hold on to your gun weapons retention means survival) see the full article here:

    http://www.personaldefensesolutions....ntoYourGun.pdf

    I think it was written for US Concealed Carry Magazine. It discusses the Lindell Weapon Retention System.

    One part of the article stuck in my head. I would like to share it with you:

    "It is also very important to maintain an appropriate level of physical
    fitness: strength, speed, flexibility and cardiovascular endurance. You will need all of these resources in a fight."

    What do I know.....It's just me $0.02 worth. However while I respect what others have posted in this section I still stand by every word I said. The problem with the internet is everyone is an expert.

    Rant over!
    I don't care who says it, there are seniors who have infirmities that absolutely prohibit fighting or any sudden exertions.
    Now according to you, and maybe those you respect, they should not carry. Do you really believe that? If so then what are the options of the elderly and infirm?

    I do very much agree that OC is not a good option for those folks, and if they do a good job of concealing there should be no reason to fight for the gun unless the BG has gotten too close and attacks. That can very well happen in spite of statements that one always knows who and what is around him, and must not let anyone get within10 feet or some distance. That is impossible, and if one does not believe it then go to Walmart on an average busy day. There is no way in the general scheme of things to keep everyone at some distance over 3-6 feet.

    Regards,
    Jerry

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