This is a discussion on Gun Retention within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Yup, as threefeathers says, you can get a very good foundation in weapons retention through LFI 2 and LFI 3. Marty Hayes also teaches Lindell ...
Yup, as threefeathers says, you can get a very good foundation in weapons retention through LFI 2 and LFI 3. Marty Hayes also teaches Lindell system as a stand-alone class through the Firearms Academy of Seattle, both basic & advanced.
The beautiful thing about any of these classes is that they put you in touch with lots of like-minded people who've had the same basic instruction. What you do about that is up to you, of course -- but I find, every once in awhile, I just get this awful urge to get together with people I know and trust so we can beat each other up a little. Lotsa fun!
"You fight the way you Train"
All the suggestions here could have a use in some situation or another. You can't really say one will work better than the other etc. without having a lot of specifics.There could be a million scenarios to what someone would do in a certain situation, and what would work for me might not work for you.
My suggestion would be to fill up on all the techniques you can find and hopefully one of them will work should a "situation" arise.
When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. - Thomas Jefferson
I think I am going to make a little video for people on this forum that want to learn some easy but effective gun retention techniques....these will be the same techniques I have shown in my seminars.
"You fight the way you Train"
In my Officer survival class...which I teach to civilians who carry a handgun. We do the (2) minute fight for life, An instructor in a red man suite tries to take your gun and anything goes "Just like on the street" 98% of the time it goes to the ground. Most say it is the longest 2 min of their life.
Most gain a healthy respect for any type of fight skills. I believe Robert Tillman wrote: You will not rise to the occasion...... you will default to your level of training......So how good is your training.
I am very leery of any Instructor who says always do this......or never do that....What I teach is a way not the way.
However please note I think you are getting to hung up on going to the ground.
Any good firearms instructor I ever met talked about gaining some type of hand to hand skill. Gun fights happen fast and close. You don't know what you don't know. People are always afraid of what they don’t know or understand.
Stay Safe and in condition yellow.
It would work great on a mat in the gym. It might work great on grass on or sand.
Try it on a sidewalk and I think most folks will not like the results.
Look, if the typical civilian CHL/CWP holder had the athleticism you are talking about combined with the ground fighting/combat skills and dynamic gymnastic ability you are talking about, maybe they wouldn't even feel compelled to carry.
I'm no 16 year old gymnast and I won't pretend that I am. I'm no 21 year old jock, either.
I need techniques that will work for who I am, otherwise they are useless.
Looking forward to additional comments from others on how to deal with the combat situation you are describing. I have my own ideas, but sure would like to hear from others before chiming in (if at all).
I'm awfully glad that I took a gun retention class from someone who refuses to teach techniques that will not work for ordinary people, with the ordinary collection of human weaknesses. "Does this technique pass the 'Bambi versus Godzilla test'?" is the question of the day. That is, can the smallest and weakest person in the class effectively use that technique to successfully retain or retrieve the firearm from the strongest and most capable person present? If not, it has little utility in the real world where predators usually do not attack people who appear equal in size or strength to themselves, but instead prey on the small, weak, or disabled.
I have deep doubts as to the utility of a technique which requires someone to risk deliberately maiming himself for life when there are other, better options so readily available. Avoid unnecessary personal injury: Now there's a true combat mindset!
"Don't carry it unless you can fight without it" is just plain unrealistic, especially when used to promote techniques that will not realistically work for people who are not young, strong, and flexible. It's absolutely true that people who carry a gun should know how to defend and retain the gun, but the techniques they use to do that should recognize -- not just recognize, but be centered around the recognition -- that many people carry firearms to defend themselves despite physical infirmities and deficiencies.
Because of this, I suggest that most of us should avoid wasting time on flashy, mat-based techniques that require a lot of physical strength and agility.
Similarly, avoid techniques that rely for their effectiveness on pain compliance, strikes or blows. The problem with striking and pain compliance techniques is that they assume the BG will comply with simple pain, or will never be able or willing to absorb more punishment than you are physical able to deliver. Anyone who's ever taken a blow to the face and gotten fighting mad knows this is not always true!
Look instead for classes that emphasize techniques designed to maximize limited strength, using timeless, powerful principles of leverage and balance to control the firearm and destroy the opponent. Once you've learned the principles, you can later add strikes or blows to these techniques without sacrificing effectiveness. Think of strikes and blows as little "value added" bonuses, not as the centerpiece of your gun retention efforts.
Krav maga anyone????
Don"t let stupid be your skill set....
And Shepards we shall be, for Thee, my Lord, for Thee,
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand, So that our feet may swiftly carry out thy command,
And we shall flow a river forth to Thee, And teeming with souls shall it ever be,
after 5 days with Mas, i couldn't take Pax's gun away, in fact she almost broke my finger. Jim Lyndel's system works folks.
I plan to spend the weekend with my son as a dummy.
DCJS Instructor said,
"With all due respect....In MY opinion anyone who can not fight to retain their firearm...Should not carry it."
I do not believe that you have given that statement much thought. Let us take a man of 77 who has cardiovascular disease that would result in being incapacitated in a few seconds.
So by your thinking he should not carry a firearm, but should just be satisfied to be a victim?
Surely you jest.
I am a gun and knife person, meaning I have always carried a knife as a back up weapon on and off duty. I believe the most effective gun retention techniques involve the use of a knife. The knife is an equalizer, allowing smaller and weaker individuals to combat the strength and size of bigger assailants.
If you carry a gun then you probably have come to the conclusion that you might have to take some ones life in defense of you or a loved one. A knife is just another piece of equipment for accomplishing this same task. So why not learn to use a knife for retaining your firearm. I mean if someone is trying to take your gun then he obviously is doing so to cause you great bodily injury or death. Therefore stabbing or cutting him would be justifiable as shooting him.
Now for the law enforcement community things are a little different. Would you imagine what people would say if they knew that their local police department was teaching its officers on the use of the knife in a defensive and offensive manner? Citizens would be outraged and that is why most agencies consider a knife as a tool and not a defensive weapon.
So someone in my business has to be able come up with defensive techniques that would be effective for both groups, civilian and law enforcement.
"You fight the way you Train"
Someone who I respect (Bruce N. Eimer PhD.) wrote an article about Handgun Retention techniques.
It is called: ARMED SENIOR CITIZEN (How to hold on to your gun weapons retention means survival) see the full article here:
I think it was written for US Concealed Carry Magazine. It discusses the Lindell Weapon Retention System.
One part of the article stuck in my head. I would like to share it with you:
"It is also very important to maintain an appropriate level of physical
fitness: strength, speed, flexibility and cardiovascular endurance. You will need all of these resources in a fight."
What do I know.....It's just me $0.02 worth. However while I respect what others have posted in this section I still stand by every word I said. The problem with the internet is everyone is an expert.
Also, I guess I'm an exception. You won't find too many guys my age getting regular exercise, let alone MA instruction on a regular basis. I know guys 20-25 years younger who carry, but lack the ability to fight, or the inclination to learn how.
Shortly after I got my CHL 8 years ago I realized that something else was needed to go with it. And that is some H2H skills. Unfortunately, lots of older folks just can't begin to do this stuff. It is wishful thinking that the typical CHL/CWP holder will do what you have suggested regarding "maintain an appropriate level of physical
fitness: strength, speed, flexibility and cardiovascular endurance."
Oh, one more point before I bow out of the discussion. You talked about 2 minute fight drills. Uh, one of the first things my first instructor (not the 25 y.o. young guy) told me was, "a fight is 2-3 seconds. Go watch Bourne Identity."
Who in the world, where in the civilian world, will anyone ever go at it for that length of time? Life and real world fights aren't choreographed Hollywood stuff that go on until the next advertisement.
Now according to you, and maybe those you respect, they should not carry. Do you really believe that? If so then what are the options of the elderly and infirm?
I do very much agree that OC is not a good option for those folks, and if they do a good job of concealing there should be no reason to fight for the gun unless the BG has gotten too close and attacks. That can very well happen in spite of statements that one always knows who and what is around him, and must not let anyone get within10 feet or some distance. That is impossible, and if one does not believe it then go to Walmart on an average busy day. There is no way in the general scheme of things to keep everyone at some distance over 3-6 feet.