This is a discussion on Gun Retention within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This thread has a lot of stuff to think about.
I have trained for retaining my firearm. In a majority of situations I have trained ...
December 9th, 2009 12:06 AM
This thread has a lot of stuff to think about.
I have trained for retaining my firearm. In a majority of situations I have trained for I have been able to keep control. There was a couple, however, wherein I lost control.
It was a very eye-opening and frightening force-on-force training exercise. Afterward we talked about things I could have done different and ways I could have succeeded.
All that being said, I'm a 100 lbs female. Just the other day my husband (who is 225 lbs) and I were play-fighting on our hard-wood living room floor. I attempted a move not dissimilar to the one suggested. I put my foot up to stop him from sitting on me and when he brought down all of his weight on my foot it put pressure on my hips which ground my spine into the floor. There was a pretty nasty crunching sound and I went limp.
I couldn't walk right for a week.
Trying to "toss" someone (especially someone who outweighs you by a hundred pounds or so) over your head with a simple roll may look interesting on tv but in real life you are going to end up hurting yourself.. especially if that maneuver is done on a hard surface.
As I said, there were situations wherein I could not retain my firearm in training. However, I do not think that means I shouldn't be allowed to carry. I have trained on retention, I have done my best to wear the right kind of holsters and be conscious of my firearm and those around. I carry a knife weak-side for a backup but I am also aware that given an aggressive attack I just might loose my firearm and I need to plan for that as well.
Finally, I wish we had video of the police officer who tried to disarm my husband with a simple, open-top Galco holster. Even with my husband holding still, arms on top of his vehicle, it took him at least three good pulls and a couple angles before he got the gun (and that's not counting how many times he tried to remove it while JD was still sitting in the car). It increased my confidence in regular, good open-top holsters 100 fold.
December 9th, 2009 10:12 AM
Thanks for that post and giving first hand experience.
My son happens to weigh about 250 and has been in the martial arts most of his life until recently. He also lifts weights and is very powerful. My point is that if he decided to mug me and take my gun when he was within range, I would not have a chance. He could use one hand for my gun and put me out of commission with his other hand.
A lot of techniques look good, and are good, when an expert is working with us average folks, but in the real world there are “many slips twixt the cup and the lips.”
“I couldn't walk right for a week.”
Now you know not to wrestle with the 500 lb Gor er Putty Cat.
“Finally, I wish we had video of the police officer who tried to disarm my husband with a simple, open-top Galco holster. Even with my husband holding still, arms on top of his vehicle, it took him at least three good pulls and a couple angles before he got the gun (and that's not counting how many times he tried to remove it while JD was still sitting in the car). It increased my confidence in regular, good open-top holsters 100 fold.”
That is why I have never felt the need for a retention device. In fact until well broken in, I have to us a strong pull to draw the gun.
Thanks again for the post.
December 9th, 2009 01:14 PM
Lima, nice post. Glad you didn't get hurt severely, as that might easily have happened.
I think I'm going to start using a signature line, "sometimes we lose." No one is going to be able to retain a gun 100% of the time against any and all comers. "sometimes we lose."
December 9th, 2009 01:47 PM
Great post, Lima. I think every body who decides to carry should make an effort to some degree of weapons retention training; it's a must in my book.
FWIW, last time I trained in handgun retention techniques, the confrontation ended with both of us on the ground. The other guy, 3 times my weight fell on top of me... I had a couple of bruised ribs from that fall.
The fight did not end there, though. I ended it with finger jabs to his eyes. That gave me enough space and time to squirm out of his grasp and "reload" my training gun as I fought back to my feet.
I survived that one! Even though it was training, it scared the beegeebees outta me having to fight that way.
If handguns cause crime, mine are deffective - Ted Nugent
December 9th, 2009 07:40 PM
Gun retention and senior citizens
You do as much as you can do. True that there are many folks who lack mobility, flexibility and strength. The gun is the great equalizer as long as you can retain it and effectively deploy it with adequate speed and necessary accuracy. It's all about getting the job done which equals saving your bacon.
The most important elements are your brain and your heart.
Bruce Eimer, Ph.D.
Personal Defense Solutions for Effective Self-Defense & Personal Protection
Defensive Handguns Forum - Index
December 9th, 2009 11:02 PM
The model is vastly different from what an LE officer should expect to encounter versus what a citizen with a carry permit might expect to encounter.
This is an important distinction, often overlooked, which should be reflected in the training provided to each respective group.
December 9th, 2009 11:16 PM
An LEO (Easter) , was chasing a BG, he tackled the BG and suddenly found himself fighting to retain possession of his firearm as the BG went for it. He was shot and killed with is own firearm by the BG during the scuffle.
I'm not tackling anyone. I'm not fighting anyone... they will drop long before they get to me or my gun. I've had all types of training ... varied & including martial arts, etc.... but if someone should surprise me and even get a hand near it.... then I have to assume there is nothing good going to come out of them wanting possession of my gun. Therefore, it's no holds barred street fighting where anything and everything goes to take the guy out, including the knife on my other side. I'm sure my training would come into play and be in a 'reaction' / reflex mode.
I think that's what people really need to get into their mind. This is not a "nice fight", it could be a fight literally for your life and it's the best to fight that way...
December 9th, 2009 11:37 PM
Randy could you expound on that statement.....
Originally Posted by Randy
My thoughts are who ever you are LEO or not if you have a gun and you get into a fight it's a gunfight...if your in a gunfight, your in a fight for your life.
If the "BG" (Bad Guy) picked you to attack whether you are a LEO or not ....by the way people are just walking up and executing cop’s in coffee shops by the way. You are way behind the power curve no level of awareness no combat mindset.
The best retention is prevention…..However If you have it and can not control it; someone WILL take it and use it against you.
Again this is only my $0.02 .
December 9th, 2009 11:45 PM
Cool so what’s your plan if you loose your firearm????
Originally Posted by limatunes
P.S. I am glad you were not mortally wounded. But it's good to know that you could have done it if you had to (Because you have already done it). I promise you that if you were in a real fight and your adrenal gland was pumping adrenalin through your body you would not feel a thing. And may have 2x the strength so…. If you did that to a 225 pound guy with no real danger what could you do if you had too……
December 10th, 2009 08:24 AM
On one level, yes, on another, no. Whether you are an LEO or a senior citizen or male or female Non-LEO, if someone is trying to get your weapon, it is a death match. The skill set is the same. Certainly, if you are young, agile and strong, you can commit to doing different things than if you are old, stiff and weaker. But, we are still talking about basic principles such as trap the BG's hand/s, retain your weapons and disable him explosively with either a firearm, your hands, a sharp blade, or a combination thereof. It is not play. It is a fight for your life.
Originally Posted by Randy
Bruce Eimer, Ph.D.
Personal Defense Solutions for Effective Self-Defense & Personal Protection
Defensive Handguns Forum - Index
December 10th, 2009 10:28 AM
Good to see you here.
The disagreement here -- mild as it is -- isn't over whether or not gun retention skills are necessary. And it isn't over whether you're in a fight for your life if someone tries to take your gun. And it isn't over whether or not "anything goes" when you're in a fight for your life.
The disagreement (again, mild as it is) is simply over whether it's a good idea to deliberately train yourself to do something that will almost certainly result in crippling or disabling yourself, or whether it's a better idea to look for and practice techniques that will work without adding an unnecessary risk to the proceedings.
DCJS suggests that people throw themselves backwards onto the ground and "flip" the opponent over their heads with a leg to the opponent's groin as they do so. I've done that move, on a mat, with a cooperative uke. It's flashy, it's cool, and it's cripplingly unsafe on a hard and uneven surface such those found nearly everywhere outside the confines of a nice safe dojo. Even on the mat, it's prohibitively dangerous for people with spinal injuries, for older people with neck or back problems, or for people who have not spent a significant amount of time learning how to fall properly (which a great many people reading this simply have not done and will not do).
There are better -- read that as "less risky and more certain to succeed" -- firearm retention techniques. There are a lot of better techniques. But not all of them make nifty YouTube videos, or sound cool. They simply work...
Come to think of it, there are a whole bunch of safer ways to throw your opponent to the ground, if that's your goal. Working throws is lots of fun, but of course some throws are considerably less dangerous to the defender and more dangerous to the attacker and I think those are the ones that are going to be of most utility in a fight for your life.
My contention is that it's best to practice techniques that work well and that are centered around the recognition that you will probably be smaller and less powerful than your opponent. I believe that timeless principles of leverage (such as those taught by the Lindell system) are much safer for the defender, can be coupled with some very nasty tricks once the principles are learned, and can be used in a wide variety of situations, including a fight for your life where anything goes.
December 10th, 2009 11:24 AM
Originally Posted by pax
I am greatly disheartened that you would take one statement from my post and harp on it mildly.......
After all the good advice I gave this is what you emphasize?
Here is what I posted word for word:
Dropping to one knee serves the purpose of lowering your center of gravity and getting your opponent off balance. If after firing, your attacker has not let go of your firearm then fall on your back while dragging your opponent with you placing your foot into his mid section and using his momentum to flip him over you.
First you drop to one knee to lower your center of gravity! Pull the trigger if you can...if not or if it does not work...most people survive being shot with a handgun. THEN FALL ON YOUR BACK!
put your foot in his mid-section not GROIN. and using his momentum to flip him over you.
I have been respectful of all those who post, while I may not agree with them that is my prerogative. However if you are going to give advice and indicate that the way I described is incorrect then quote it correctly.
There are many ways of doing something. What I teach is a way not the way. I believe the correct way to Frazee it is this may not work for everyone, I have tried it and I did not like it or feel comfortable with it. This is why we must train to determine what will work for us. The time to find out what works or will not is not in a gunfight.
P.S. Bruce glad to see you as well.
December 10th, 2009 12:02 PM
I fully agree with the general mindset of this thread: retention techniques and being prepared to fight without your primary firearm are absolutely necessary. Just like the choice of weapon, manner of carry and concealment etc. it will vary on an individual basis.
If you have physical limitations, you need to find a solution that will work for you. Going to ground will likely not work.
If you have groundfighting skills, taking someone to ground will be your preferred option.
Some variation of close range open hand skills are necessary to train.
If you are going to carry a knife, you must train with that as hard as with your fists or gun.
Unpracticed techniques are the most dangerous (to the practitioner)
Your thoughts and training will change as you and your skill set and abilities change. What is right now may not be right later.
Do not fight, but if you fight, you fight for your life.
December 10th, 2009 12:27 PM
Many ways of doing things
Why drop backwards for the move you proposed. Why not --- if willing to go down toward the ground---just grab the back of the heel and run your shoulder into the knee? BG will let go and fall backward; and if you can't complete the move you can still elbow the privates, head butt what ever is handy and probably blade smack every pressure point on the forearm of the BG on the way up. You might even be able
Originally Posted by DCJS Instructor
to attack the wrist grabbing your gun (at the risk of shooting your own wrist), use your right shoulder and left arm to create an arm bar like move that would pull the gun down.
I can think of lots of ways---I just can't see what you proposed working for myself or for generally less fit but somewhat trained folks.
The more I study Krav and Arnis, with a heft dose of stuff from the other arts thrown in where appropriate (not a slave to one style), the more I see options--- several ways to deal with the same threat.
Sometimes there is a right way, a wrong way, a better way, a safer way, a more risky way. You just won't know till that very moment.
What has been proposed is OK maybe in extremis, but it sure would be my very last choice and I don't think I would be going anywhere but to a hospital and nursing home thereafter.
December 10th, 2009 12:40 PM
Please forgive me if (since?) I sounded less than respectful to you -- truly not my intent, simply trying to be clear as to where the mild point of disagreement came in & what the differences were.
The big problem with discussing specific physical techniques in an online format is that two hours' worth of typing does not even begin to describe two seconds' worth of live demo! Hence the type of confusion I created above by trying to shortcut the description; again, my apologies on that and I wasn't trying to misrepresent your position, simply trying to move the discussion forward.
My contention was & is that it's bad juju to practice techniques that have a strong possibility of damaging the practicioner in a real life situation. Yes, fights do sometimes go to the ground, but they go to the ground a whole lot less often when you don't deliberately take them there.
Again and specifically: the ground in the real world isn't like the ground in the dojo. It has gravel. It has broken glass. It is uneven and has sharp bits. Dropping a knee or a back onto it is dangerous, and likely to damage the practicioner. Such a move might be required at some point, but it's definitely not a preferred technique when others, less likely to injure yourself, are available. This is particularly true as the types of injuries likely to be caused by this aren't just painful: they're crippling, which makes it literally impossible to "fight through" the damage. Pain you can and will fight through, but crippling injury, which is actual damage to structural parts, is a different beast entirely. Of course the only way to find out which type it is is to try, and that's the plan; but realistically, structural damage to the knee or a ruptured spinal cord does not become functional simply because the damaged person has a strong will to fight & survive. Pain is easily overcome with mindset and adrenalin, but structural injury is more stubborn.
Even with good groundfighting skills, going to the ground in the real world where attackers have friends with sharp-toed boots is not the preferred method of dealing with an attack. Sure, you might end up there, if you aren't experienced enough to lower your center of gravity, widen your stance, and keep your weight on the balls of your feet -- or if your attacker knows a throw for which you don't know the counter -- but taking it there on purpose is pure madness. Especially so if you go to ground before your opponent, as your suggested throw requires. Better spend the same time learning some throws that keep you in control and above the assailant rather than under him. (The move you suggested is a nice little vicious way to turn it to your advantage when you're falling anyway, not something to do when you still have other options...)
Once you're down, there's no getting away: you are in the fight until one of you is dead or unconscious. And once you are enmeshed to that point, and if you are smaller, weaker, or less physically able than your attacker, guess which one of you that will most likely be?
Again, this isn't to say that fights don't sometimes go to the ground. They do. And a smart, determined person learns what to do and how to cope when that happens.
But retaining or regaining the firearm while staying on your feet, readily prepared to disengage and bolt for safety at the earliest safe possibility once your attacker is disabled -- that's best of all.
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