Since alot of individuals carry firearms, some openly, I was wondering if anybody that is not a LEO is trained in gun retention. This includes when the gun is in your holster or in your hand after it has been deployed. This is also an important part of carrying a firearm.
You see LEO have holsters that have some kind of mechanism that makes removing the gun from their duty holster a little tricky. Since most civilians carry off duty holsters that dont' have theses same mechanisms, removing the gun from the holster is very easy.
I believe if you carry a firearm, whether openly or concealed, you should have some training on gun retention.
Originally Posted by black knife
If you carry openly in town, IMO you should use a security holster of some sort.
You hear all the time about cops being shot with their service sidearm.
But cops are required to arrest drunks, felons and uniformed police carry openly. They are expected to do hand to hand first before they draw and fire. But the jails and prisons teach the BGs how to draw and if they get a chance they will go for the visible gun.
A great big plus for concealed carry.
Gun/ weapon retention
Open carry or concealed, training in weapons retention and recovery is important. Last thing you want is the BG to take it from your hands.
Originally Posted by black knife
In other threads here Mercop has posted about integrating firearms and martial arts training. The concept makes a lot of sense. You want to be able to make both move seamlessly to the other whenever possible.
There are lots of ways to have a gun taken out of your hand. There are a few ways, where with luck, you can take one from a BG. It is good to at least be aware of the possibilities.
Agreed with you guys on all points.
I personally would not carry as in public OC without having a duty grade retention holster at level 2 as a minimum.
But then the necessary hardware to support as much and the appearance of same would result in a look that I personally actively avoid. As well comfort greatly reduces with same as a result of again the necessary hardware involved (belt & holster).
Interestingly though two of my local town police do not mandate same nor do the college and university police locally either.
But hey nothing ever happens around here...
there are hardware solutions (specialty holsters), and there are firmware upgrades (training). I recommend both. Ultimately, IMO the brain and your SA is your best defense.
ps: it is fun to insert a non firing red weapon into your rig and have a buddy go for it in different settings. You quickly see how ugly it can get. IMO it heightened the need for SA and pre treatment/avoidance. Also enforced how good a concealement rig is or can be to avoid much (but not all) of the hoopla.
Firearms retention in and out of the holster will always be a training issue, not an equipment issue.
Holsters are designed to be drawn from and retain guns in the standing position. Once you are on your back or up against a vertical surface things change.
We teach weapons retention in, and out of the holster as well as how to isolate the arm of an attacker into choke. More than anything to show how fast you can be disarmed if you are fixated on the gun instead of the fight. A blood choke is "snapped" in, not squeezed as many think. Imagine yourself with your gun in your holster, strong hand elevated high above your head and you loosing consciousness.
No amount of shooting will prepare you for this. It requires a different type of training. Full integration of open hand, impact weapon, edged weapons, and firearms.
The busier I get the lest time I have to post articles on the forums. Now most stuff is on my blog and the Modern Combatives System page on Facebook. Come chat with us if you are interested in prevailing instead of what tool you use to do it.- George
Yes, at Mas Ayoob's LFI II and III. Jim Lyndell's method updated by Mas and Marty Hays.
It took two weeks to get the bruises off my hands.
I can honestly say retention is something I have really never considered. I always carry concealed so I guess it never crossed my mind. Now that I think about it I guess it would be smart to have some kind of retention tactics.
Is there even a such thing as retention tactics for concealed carry? I have never seen any but I imagine there would have to be some out there.
Concealed carry is a great weapon retention element. Any Pistol Self-Defense course is going to cover gun retention and shooting from retention. This is something that is a 'must' to learn about and practice.
I was just in the office at school two days ago admiring our school liaison officer's new Sig and level two retention holster now required for all of our county's deputies. It definitely takes some development of new muscle memory.
You don't want to 'have' to be drawing without having it happen without thinking about it.
I go back to my original statement for civilians...just keep it covered in crowds.:yup::comeandgetsome:
Quality leather holsters are usually so tight you have to give them the wax paper or plastic bag treatment so that you can draw the gun. After you get the holster so that you can draw the gun without undue effort there is no way a BG is going to snatch the gun. The holster is just too tight and it takes pulling in a specific direction before it can be drawn from the holster.'
I personally would not use a retention holster, but I have never cared for OC. But if I did I would not worry about using a retention holster.
All our pistol classes including Combative Pistol and Non-Ballistic Combative Pistol (same class, airsoft only) covers retention in and out of the holster.
Again, here is the problem with high security duty holsters, they are designed for the gun to be drawn while you are standing still. When a dynamic situation occurs and your hips go one way and your head goes the other they are often catastrophic draw failures.
And as far as open carry goes, a gun that can be seen is one that can be taken. When you punch somebody in their face, especially if they have never been punched in the face before, their hands come up to their face, not to their gun.- George
If it ain't there to be seen then it ain't there to be fought for to retain, from being taken.
Concealed means 'out of sight' as in not visible AND not printing either.
This is basic as basic gets.
Hear is some good advice that was given to me...so I thought I would pass it along:
The first thing we need to understand about Weapon Retention is that the best defense we have for countering a weapon grab is our brain. If we use our heads while employing good tactics, mindset and awareness, Weapon Retention should never be an issue. In most instances where people have had to fight for their own weapon, they can point back to a mistake they themselves made that allowed it to happen. Whether it was because they were in condition white and allowed someone to get to close to them and attempt to remove their weapon from a holster or, when covering someone or searching for someone with weapon in hand, they employed poor tactics and gave someone an opportunity to grab for their weapon.
Having said all that, one might ask why we need to teach weapon retention methods. Well, we are human, and we all make mistakes and when we make those mistakes and find ourselves fighting for our lives, we want to have a plan. Did I mention that if someone tries to take your weapon you are fighting for your LIFE? Yes, if someone takes your weapon they are not going to put it down and say ďOk now we are even, Letís settle this with fistísĒ. If someone takes your weapon, they will KILL you and you are justified in using Deadly Force to defend that weapon.
Weapon Retention training for handguns comes in two forms. Retaining the weapon while in the holster and retaining the weapon while in hand.
First I want to talk a little about equipment. When carrying a firearm you should always choose your equipment based on quality and not price and style. This is very important when choosing a belt and holster. You do not want to have the tactics you use to defend your weapon to fail because you chose a poor quality belt and Holster. Many times in training I have taken students guns and holsters off of their belts because they had poor quality equipment. I have even taken a belt or two, so choose wisely. Another factor to consider is mode of carry. If you are a civilian or an off duty LEO you should always make sure your firearm is concealed at ALL times. If nobody knows you have a firearm, then the less likely it is that you will have to fight for it while it is holstered. If you are a LEO and carrying on duty you should invest in a good quality retention holster if your department does not issue one to you. However, do not depend on the retention abilities of your holster alone. Learn sound tactics for defending you weapon.
One other thing you should consider in the way of equipment is an edged weapon dedicated to defending your firearm from attack. I recommend a fixed blade knife carried on the weak side belt.
Whether attacked from the front, back or side, if someone gets their hand on your weapon while it is holstered you need to act immediately.
Using your strong hand, trap the weapon in the holster by applying as much downward pressure as necessary on the personís hand and your weapon to keep it from being removed. Move! Do not stand still. Move rapidly in tight circles in either direction. You will find through training that depending on how and with what hand the person grabbed your weapon, turning rapidly in a certain direction while his/her hand is trapped will cause pain and injury that will motivate them to want to let go of your weapon.
Moving rapidly also has the effect of resetting you attackers O.O.D.A. Loop and causing him/her to now have to respond to your actions instead of you to his. At the same time you should be using your weak hand to inflict pain and injury. This is not the school playground nor is it a time to be timid. This is a time to be crushing someoneís Larynx or shoving your thumb into his or her eye socket. Or, you could use that fixed blade knife I mentioned. Whatever you do, needs to be done immediately and with a fierce determination to maintain control of your weapon, for if you fail you are likely to die.
As with holster retention, having to fight for your firearm while it is in hand can be avoided by using sound tactics, mindset and awareness. If you are covering someone with a firearm do not get too close and never allow him or her to approach close enough to attempt a weapon grab. If you are searching for someone with gun in hand, do not lead with your firearm when approaching doorways and corners. If however someone does get his or her hands on your firearm your response should be immediate and decisive. Jerk sharply while stepping back to regain control, If that fails, drop to one knee while attempting to direct the muzzle into their midsection and fire.
Dropping to one knee serves the purpose of lowering your center of gravity and getting your opponent off balance. If after firing, your attacker has not let go of your firearm then fall on your back while dragging your opponent with you placing your foot into his mid section and using his momentum to flip him over you. If you are using a revolver, your revolver may not be capable of firing if someone is holding it in such a way as to prevent rotation of the cylinder. If you are using a semi-automatic and your attacker maintained a good grip on the slide when you fired, then your weapon has an empty cartridge in the chamber and you need to recharge it immediately upon regaining control. This sounds like a long drawn out process but in reality it should be done in one concerted movement (Jerk, Drop, Fire, Fall, Flip) and the key again is resetting your opponents O.O.D.A. Loop by requiring him to react to your actions.
DCJS wrote:" If after firing, your attacker has not let go of your firearm then fall on your back while dragging your opponent with you placing your foot into his mid section and using his momentum to flip him over you. "
First, I think overall DCJS gave sound advice, and maybe above would be OK for a younger and moderately well fit and athletic individual, i.e., a cop.
I can't see that as a viable approach for me. My goal, given my age, would be to not get on the ground, period!!!
I see the point being made, but some other tactic would be needed by most of the non-LEOs CWP/CHL holders here; and even by many of the older and perhaps less fit LEOs here.
Falling onto your back and rolling like that, on a city street, sounds like a pretty good way for most of us to break every important bone we own.
Originally Posted by Hopyard
With all due respect....In MY opinion anyone who can not fight to retain their firearm...Should not carry it. I promise you if you get into a struggling match with a perp for your gun, you my friend are going to the ground and if you are not prepared then don't carry a gun. If you can not control it ….you will loose it.
All too often people fall into the false sense of security ….that if I have a gun nothing will happen to me….If you are in a fight and you have a gun you are in a gun fight. More importantly you are in a fight for your life. You can never say that tactic won’t work for me….There are (3) things that will enable you to win a fight
SPEED, SURPIZE AND VIOLNCE OF ACTION.
If you have a gun and the bad guy dose not…….He WILL try and take it from you…if he succeeds you just caused your own death.
Combat Mindset. You will be surprised what you can or will do when your life is on the line.
I would rather break a bone and live ….then not and die.
Just my 2 cents