Things that draw attention....or should

This is a discussion on Things that draw attention....or should within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by AWDeanSr I do not think anyone is saying that there is not a criminal element looking for victims of opportunity . I ...

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Thread: Things that draw attention....or should

  1. #61
    Member Array Faitmaker's Avatar
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by AWDeanSr View Post
    I do not think anyone is saying that there is not a criminal element looking for victims of opportunity . I am just not a big fan of coercion or unjustifiable paranoia by LEO or civilians!

    HEY! Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Coercion and reasonable subterfuge are two different things.

  4. #63
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faitmaker View Post
    You've just fallen in the "that's BS because I do that too" bin. There are exceptions to every rulle and that is why most LEO's will hang out and see what else it is about you that doesn't fit. After a bit, I'm sure he would see that you are not one of those he is looking for. At no time did he say he would pull someone over for just one of these issues. Hell maybe you had a good reason wy your license is zip tied (bolts rusted and you were going to get new ones?). He said it was items of interest. Things that got his attention.

    I don't understand why some people here are getting so bent out of shape. Hell I think you're guilty just because you're so defensive. Honest men wouldn't get so worked up.. would they?

    So if I fit most of the profile, could you tell tell me the secret handshake that will get me a pass on further observation? And I would hope an honest man would get wound up for having his normal behavior suspicion of criminal activity.
    I'm not a lawyer or a LEO, just a pantload with a computer.

  5. #64
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Define normal behavior. Hard to do without context, huh?

  6. #65
    Senior Member Array ICTsnub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Define normal behavior. Hard to do without context, huh?
    Well, given the context of your post, people in cars, my normal behavior is coming and going from work, and running errands.
    I'm not a lawyer or a LEO, just a pantload with a computer.

  7. #66
    Member Array aric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Beware of two or more men driving around in a car. I am not talking about guys in a car pool. It has been my professional experience that when you have two or more guys driving around, especially during the hours of darkness, they are looking for women, drugs, booze, or to break the law.

    Depending on the environment my attention is also drawn to a female driving with a guy in the passenger seat. This often means that the guy has a suspended/revoked license which is often a good indicator of other criminal activity. Same thing goes for a guy driving what is obviously due to stuff hanging from the rear view, or maybe seat covers, stuffed animals in the rear view mirror, is a girls car. Always ask yourself does the driver match the car. Your damn right it it profiling, you know how we know so much about profiling? Because it works. Learn to play "one of these things don't look like the other".

    Beware of two guys outside of a business that are not standing together but obviously in communication with each other. Usually with with glances and head nods. They are separated so they can angle on you.

    In your state do you have to display a front tag? If you do and you see a car with no front tag, it may be stolen. How about the rear plate on a car being covered with dead bugs, does that make sense? How about a tag secured with zip ties, or maybe one screw? How about new screws on an old beater car. How about a car from your state with a bumper sticker identifying that that car came from a different state?
    Not Even being a LEO the Idea of this if perfectly sound. I drive a lot on
    back country roads, I'm always looking for things that don't seem right. That vehicle that just turned where I did, does it look like it belongs?. is he/she driving like they know these roads like a local or seem lost and looking for something. 30 miles every night with 5-10 miles that have spotty or no cell coverage, have tuned my spidey senses.
    My husband hardly ever drives and license plates NOT held on with zip ties get strange looks around here

  8. #67
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Like everything else YMMV. Kind of a silly example but when I watch cops with my family and I say something like "he is gonna run" and he does, or make another prediction based on experience or expertise, my wife says "how did you know that", I just do.

    What would look like a hand shake to many here is an obvious hand to hand drug deal to an experienced police. The information was put out for you to entertain, if you disagree or dislike it...disregard it.- George

  9. #68
    Member Array Faitmaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICTsnub View Post
    So if I fit most of the profile, could you tell tell me the secret handshake that will get me a pass on further observation? And I would hope an honest man would get wound up for having his normal behavior suspicion of criminal activity.
    You act like he's already got you thrown over the car hood! I'm willing to bet that you've been observed multiple times without even knowing about it so what's the difference? Because you know about it now? Remember, we pay LEO's to be looking for this kind of stuff. No reason to get bent out of shape because you mostly fit a profile.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand

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  10. #69
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AWDeanSr View Post
    That is a very vague statement, to my understanding that leaves the decision to "spot check" as a subjective evaluation by the LEO. (arbitrary:contingent solely upon one's discretion)
    You are correct are laws are such that most anyone can be stopped at most any time. It is also true that many if not most wanted violent felons are arrested at traffic stops I suspect often based upon the criteria Mercop gave. I believe that he gave those as indicators for further "observation" to determine if there is a need for him to act. I do not believe he said he acted every time he saw those indicators. They were just examples he is willing to share with us so others less skilled trained and experienced can have information that may save their bacon.

    I do it often. My wife used to say I was hyper alert worried about nothing. As the years have passed and we have avoided conflict or were ready when it arrived she no longer says that. She responds to what I say and asks why later.

    As Hotgun says have a plan to kill everyone, everyone is a threat until proven otherwise. Profiling everyone by age ethnicity, numbers, dress style, demeanor and location may not be PC but it works. The key is to see if anything is out of place, like inappropriate clothing or dress style for the season or neighborhood as an example.

    Two guys coming home from the ball game are different than two thugs prowling. A cretin in a stolen car is different than a teenager in moms car. A guy with his buddy helping him get a gift for the wife is different than two thugs looking for a mark, is different than two guys selling some weed as they are different from two guys selling crack. Knowing the differences is what saves our bacon.

    I wish I was a good at articulating specific "tells" as Mercop is because for me it is just a "knowing" without being able to clearly say why one guy walking down the street is a threat and another guy walking down the street isn't. Maybe that is something I need to work on learning to be able to explain the why.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmyCop View Post
    Of course there's exceptions to just about everything. I appreciate this post - it's good general info.

    Heck, I've been mistaken for a possible BG myself. I've heard some people auto lock their car doors when I was walking by. I didn't take it personal - just thought "Good for you - but you should have already had it locked before you saw me".
    Same here. I kind of understand that when I am in my leathers due to the "biker" stereo type though that has diminished some in the past decade. But even when I am in my normal street attire ( jeans and a flannel shirt) folks seem to act as if I am either invisible or a danger. Funny as I am by no definition a big imposing guy.
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  11. #70
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    Disagree!

    Quote Originally Posted by pcon View Post
    Or...this could mean that they're coming home from a game, or a movie, or another friend's house, or going to a game, or a movie, or another friend's house...

    To assume that two guys driving in the same car after dark are trolling around for do crimes is ludicrous!!



    Or you could just be like my wife and I who each like to drive. There are MANY times when I hand her the keys when we're going someplace simply because I didn't want to drive. Again, this is idiocy.
    He is planning for worst case, then if he is wrong there is no problem, if right he is prepared. He may or may not stop but we all profile somehow.

    I see a older male on a scooting in the middle of December in a snowstorm, I assume he lost his license due to dwi. I could be wrong but that is what I assume.
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  12. #71
    Senior Member Array Beans's Avatar
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    I worked "graves" for over 5 years and two guys in a car going home late at night does not have the same driving "pattern" as two guys scouting an area.

    I can still spot over 95% of unmarked police cars on the road by the rhythm of thier driving. Most traffic has a rhythm to it and the unmarked police car has a "hunter" rhythm.

    If you are aware you can spot them.

    Woods critters can also sense when you just taking a walk or if you are hunting by your walking rhythm. this is why you see more wood critters while just walking.

    It is there, (the sense) it just need to be developed. If it doesn't seem right, it's mosly likely not.

  13. #72
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    my stolen jeep was recovered because of a LEO noticed the rear license plate was Ohio and front license plate gone (this was while he was stopped at the light across from the gas station).... The dead give away was he was trying to hammer off the locked gas cap I installed to keep fuel thieves away.

    I have to give props for being observant + curious enough to check out the lack of front plate thing.

  14. #73
    Member Array motorhed66's Avatar
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    Its not personal, its business. Its their job. If your not a problem than it will become evident very quickly. I may have had an expiered tag or two..but no drugs , warrents etc... and on my way...Im a big dude , shaved head, fast car ..hell , Grady just might give me a very wide berth walkin down the street ...I may look the part ...but im clean .

  15. #74
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faitmaker View Post
    You've just fallen in the "that's BS because I do that too" bin. There are exceptions to every rulle and that is why most LEO's will hang out and see what else it is about you that doesn't fit. After a bit, I'm sure he would see that you are not one of those he is looking for. At no time did he say he would pull someone over for just one of these issues. Hell maybe you had a good reason wy your license is zip tied (bolts rusted and you were going to get new ones?). He said it was items of interest. Things that got his attention.

    I don't understand why some people here are getting so bent out of shape. Hell I think you're guilty just because you're so defensive. Honest men wouldn't get so worked up.. would they?

    I don't see people getting bent out of shape, I see people countering something put down and making observations such as it should be on a site, hhhmmm, just as it should be to keep things interesting. There are always exceptions to what is stated. (facial appearance not present here). Oh well, if everyone agreed, it would be a boring work wouldn't it?
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  16. #75
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    i see people getting bent out of shape and poorly countering observations even though they probably use similar tactics of their own when watching people...its a fact of life...everybody profiles and is profiled to some extent....

    i am a dressed down biker on a loud customized harley with a classic flame paint job and a manager who wears a shirt and tie...

    when iam dressed down (not poser pirate wear-i'm talking worn jeans and loose shirt stuff-i didnt always wear a shirt and tie and have a lightly rough background) i dont get very many approving looks and store security seems to like to watch what i'm doing....i am just as friendly as they get either way i'm dressed and tend to greet everyone i come near with a smile and some pleasantry...

    when i'm in a shirt and tie old ladies say hello to me and i own whatever store i walk into...the other day i was in a walmart and picked out an mp3 player in the locked cabinet for my wife...the sales guy took it out of the cabinet and let me walk away with it...they normally escort you to the register and until its paid for its not in your hands...when i got to the register the cashier couldnt figure out how i got the player and kept asking who gave it to me...

    its the way of the world and i can tell you if i'm going to commit a crime itll be in a minivan with baby on board and soccer ball stickers dressed in a shirt and tie with shined shoes...and they probably wouldnt see it coming....

    as for the rest...i spent a great deal of my youth sitting in the back of police cars because i looked like someone or might have done something wrong...my parents knew the local cops and the fact that my uncle was one was a help for me (and my parents)...i understand it and when i look back on it i dont blame them for profiling me the way they did becasue i was on the edge quite a bit...

    live with it...if youre not doing anything wrong chances are it isnt going to affect you...if it does maybe itll change a habit or 2...

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