December 15th, 2009 08:59 PM
Carbine vs Pistol training
I am sure by now everyone knows that I am a training over tools guy. Many are probably tired of hearing about it. I have a very serious question though and I would like people to weigh in for a good discussion.
Here is my question- Why do so many people who carry a pistol everyday attend carbine courses instead of pistol courses? Every time I am at Wally World I look at the gun rags and see review after review of carbine courses.
I have an M4 custom built by Steve Troy, custom SN and all. I carried it on the job, I taught carbine, I deployed it on patrol and on SWAT jobs. But to tell you the truth not that much compared to my pistol that was always on me. Several times I was involved in stuff off duty and it was always my pistol in my hands.
Now that I am not on the job anymore I see little chance of me ever being in a position to use my rifle outside my home or the range. I would imagine that is the same for most people so why the need for so many carbine courses? The farther a threat is from you the easier it is to deal with. What is the chance of anyone not in the military being spontaneously attacked while having a rifle slung? Don't misunderstand me, everyone should have training on all weapon systems but I think it should follow a logical order of what you are most likely to be able to use. For me that would be first fundamentals on pistol, shotgun, and rifle in that order. Then a combative course in each and then lots and lots of force on force in realistic environments. For most of us that would be in our "street" clothes inside of a house, not running around a field even with long guns.
Again, I am interested in everyone thoughts.- George
December 15th, 2009 10:06 PM
Hey just my $0.02!
Originally Posted by mercop
December 15th, 2009 10:47 PM
When a civilian enters a Lethal Force Situation it is important that one understand that the fight is happening in two arenas concurrently. The Tactical Arena is where the person has to fight to survive. There is a LOT of emphasis here.
Equally important is the Legal Arena. One must survive the Post Event Investigation and perhaps the inquiry of a Grand Jury. Personally I would NOT want to be on the stand with an evil black assault weapon belonging to me as Peoples Exhibit "A". I keep my AR, AK, SKS, Mini-14 and Garand locked up when they are are not on the Range. I choose to keep Lever Action "Deer Rifles" as my rifle of choice. Very Fast, Very Safe, Very Powerful guns. The Public associates these guns with Cowboys and Heroes.
Yes Sir, Your Honor, Thank the good Lord that I just happened to have my old Deer Rifle Handy when that guy went crazy and attacked me or us or them.
When the Zombies come or if I get caught in the next Hurricane Katrina, the High Capacity Rifles will be there with me. In the meantime, I think my best option is the Lever Rifle or Pump Shotgun.
The wrong IDIOT sitting on a jury, good intentioned but misinformed / ignorant, can mean imprisonment or death in a court of law.
December 16th, 2009 09:56 AM
Not everyone lives in an urban area.
Earthquakes and hurricanes happen. If there is no police service you are on your own.....
Some people live places where it is legal to have loaded long guns in their vehicles.
Many people keep a loaded long gun in the house to repel boarders.
These are all excellent reasons to get some rifle training.
December 17th, 2009 12:14 PM
I am going to use this as part of my rationale when I convince my wife I need the lever action .44 I have been looking at.
Originally Posted by RebelRabbi
December 26th, 2009 01:56 PM
Just my 2 cents.
Long Guns ( rifles) have their "place" in Personal defense for "civilians".
( I do have 1 in my "PD arsenal = SOCOM16 )
1. Not a good choice for most "home" protection or gen Urban Situations ( think collateral damage). Although if that is what you have then USE it. ( My choice for a Long Gun, in the above is my 12ga loaded with (TAP Law Enforcement Rnd.s ( the "civilian" version is also a great choice, IMHO")
2. Having one in your "PD arsenal" is a necessity. for "certain situations" & being well trained with it is "REQUIRED"
Why the "emphasis" on " carbines" at al. ?? IMHO, it is "partially" a result of 2 things
1. The "assault gun" mania"
2. The fact that LEO Dept.s, now equip their officers with them.( M16 variants), instead of Shotguns as a result of an "insolent" in CA several years ago, when officers, armed with hand guns & shot guns faced some "armored" BDs & had to "borrow" rifles to take them down.
I have "mixed feelings" on this. When I was a LEO ( County ) we were issued 12ga,s. Many of us also had Rifles in the "Car", esp. those of us that patrolled the "boonies" Over all the years, I was an LEO, the shotgun was what I went to most of the time. The only times I can remember ever having to take it out, was to dispatch animals & 1 time when we had a "barricaded" BG ( murder "suspect"). In those days we did not have SWAT units. But it was surprising the # of rifles the showed up ( county, St & local PDs ). Oh yes, the BD decided, after he was exposed to a "demo" of what he was facing, decided to "come out"
December 26th, 2009 02:04 PM
Not sure, but I agree with where you're going on this. I personally feel that whatever is in your arsenal, be it firearm or bladed weapon, you need to not just know how to use it, but be extremely proficient with it. The best way is to train. So I guess if people OWN Carbines, then kudos to them for taking the courses. Just as if they own pistols or shotguns, they ought to take courses for those as well. Even if they never think they're going to need to use them in SD/HD, or even if they're "just for the range." Because it's always better to have the knowledge and the skills and NEVER NEED TO USE THEM.
Don't frisk me, I am the weapon.
Sig Sauer P239 DAK (9mm)
NRA Member & Pistol Instructor
December 26th, 2009 03:55 PM
After Katrina any thing could happen. If someone was firing at me from a distance I would want a rifle. The deer rifle would do just fine. I sold my AR long ago.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato
December 26th, 2009 03:57 PM
A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.
December 26th, 2009 05:22 PM
“There are no short cuts; there is only the individual priority of what you need and when you need it.”
It is my opinion that learning, training, and practicing, is a never ending process. What we have is a huge self defense puzzle and we should be looking to acquire pieces to that puzzle in a manner that reflects a prioritization of what we need and when we need it. This can be a very difficult decision making process because from our very first course, we realize that we know so very little. Even for guys like me that have been hunting and shooting my whole life, my first course only let me know how little that I really knew.
As we look to prioritize, we need to look at our situation. What is our mission, goal, threat level, occupation, life style, responsibility, and mindset.
What so many people do not understand is that you do not have to be an LEO or soldier to have a high threat level. I have met a number of guys from a number of different walks of life that can articulate a very substantial threat level. This is usually from their occupation, but it can also be from their life style (where they live) and responsibility (protection of self or a loved one that is being stalked.)
I have trained with a number of guys that have made the decision to train with me, to learn combat shooting fundamentals before they learned marksmanship fundamentals. Many of these guys do not have the time to get to the advanced levels of combat shooting through the marksmanship path. They recognize the fact that that path would take too long and not give them what they need "right now." They recognize that the marksmanship path does not take the physiological response of the reactive gunfight into consideration. Most of all they realize that the chances of a reactive encounter is much more likely, to their specific situation, than a proactive encounter. They also understand that they do still need to acquire the marksmanship skill sets. But, they want to have the time to make that fine motor skill happen, all the while having their "most likely" situations covered in a very effective and efficient manner.
This type of thinking, for these guys, is very good to see. When I first started training (due to a high threat level occupation) I did not have the resources that are available now. There was virtually one path and that path was slow and inefficient. That training was all about reprogramming your natural instincts, abilities, and reactions out of you, replacing them with condition responses that did not take the typical physiological responses of the fight or flight response into consideration.
All I know is that I am very happy and lucky to be in the position to give these guys an option that is far superior to the options that I had.
The guys that taught me this stuff took a lot of heat bringing it back from the dead. They did it for one reason "to make sure that you went home at the end of the day." That is the bottom line and IMHO they have succeeded in their efforts.
It is my opinion that nobody is in the position to direct a student on which priorities he needs to be learning, but the student himself.
The question then arises, how do you help prepare yourself for the best decisions possible? IMHO an honest and realistic threat assessment must be made. This means that we must educate ourselves to the threat level that we face on a daily basis. This edification can be a very large job encompassing a number of different factors and elements. As we do this we must be careful about becoming too extreme in our thinking, we must avoid the "tinfoil hat" paranoia. As we come up with our well researched, honest, realistic, and non paranoid threat assessment, we begin to get a picture of what we need and when we need it.
Just as an example, here is a very quick list of priorities that would seem to make sense to me, inside of my very personal situation.
Mindset; Know the enemy, know the pre attack indicators, know yourself, know the laws, have your line firmly drawn in the sand, eliminate or mitigate concerns that may make you hesitate. "He who hesitates, dies!" Get your mind right!
Home Defense; Develop a multilayered approach to home security. Become competent in quality home defense weapon systems that handle your personal situation the best. Rifle, shotgun, or handgun each tool has its place where it shines. Foster knowledge and competence in tactics. Develop the knowledge that "hunting" "clearing" or "searching" as a lone home owner is extremely risky undertaking. Prioritize securing the loved ones, taking up a fortified position, staying under the cloak of darkness, and laying in wait to engage from a proactive position.
Conceal Carry; Being away from home can put you in some of the very worse of positions. I consider the concealed carry skill sets as some of our most important due to the high possibility of starting the fight from behind in the reactionary curve and working through a low light situation. Get the very best training that you can find for these situations. It is my opinion that the hand to hand skill sets, integrated with the draw stroke from concealment, coupled with dynamic movement, and point shooting skill sets are the absolute core to self defense with a handgun.
SHTF Situations; Katrina, Rodney King, Watts, etc has proven to us that things can go very wrong.....very quickly! Emergency preparedness is a must. Training, such as we see in the Suarez International Rifle courses and the High Risk Operator course, become obviously necessary skill sets.
This is just a real quick example of honest and common sense approach to an individuals list of priorities.
There is a certain realization, about the amount of time that most of us can dedicate to one aspect of the fight. Once we look at the context of "the fight" it becomes very clear that we can not just be specialists. We must be well rounded, we must be versatile. This does not allow us to focus on being "the best" on any one thing. Most of us are working stiffs, with families, responsibilities, and other interests. We do the best that we can do, within our busy lives, to be the best that we can be at defending our loved ones and ourselves. We must come up with a way to cover as much of the "most likely" as we can.
If we keep an open mind, if we develop an "inclusive" attitude, we can easily pick and choose common sense concepts that take care of the "most likely" at an efficient and effective level. To reach this efficient and effective level we must make compromises. These compromises need to be geared to the individual prioritization. A prioritization concept that may never allow for the individual to reach the level of the best shooters in the world……but may make him the very best that he can be within the specifics on his specific situation.
December 26th, 2009 09:01 PM
You really should get training in all the weapons that you purchase and carbines are very widely purchased nowadays.
Also, handguns are relatively simple tools compared to carbines. For example, a Glock has only a few manipulations you need to master vs an AR-15.
Its kind of like saying How come people learn how to use a screwdriver vs a power drill when most of the time around the house, you'll use a screwdriver. Different tools have different purposes and you should learn the pros and cons of each and preferably before you have to use them in a pressure situation.
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