Grip angle.....smrip angle!

This is a discussion on Grip angle.....smrip angle! within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The Grip/Trigger Continuum From my experience the grip/trigger continuum varies seamlessly from my long range precision grip, to my mid range standard marksmanship grip, to ...

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Thread: Grip angle.....smrip angle!

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    The Grip/Trigger Continuum

    From my experience the grip/trigger continuum varies seamlessly from my long range precision grip, to my mid range standard marksmanship grip, to my "behind in the reactionary curve" combat shooting convulsive grip, to my "OH NO!" death grip.

    Each section of the continuum has its perfect grip that gives you the very best accuracy, with the very best speed on the trigger (recoil control.) That is in line with the physiological response dictated by the urgency and distance of the encounter.

    What is nice is that when I have time the body knows it and gives me a marksmanship grip. When I do not have time the body knows it and gives me a combat grip.......and it is a seamless continuum.

    The very best way to look at the grip/trigger continuum is from the typical physiological effects of a life threatening encounter. Distance equals time....time equals urgency.....urgency equals the level of activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System (SNS) of the fight or flight response.

    It is the SNS that will dictate how tightly you will grip the gun and how hard and fast you will work the trigger.

    What is very cool is how well these varying physiological effects work with what is the very best solution to the problem. We are talking about a very natural, instinctive, and reflexive "sliding scale" approach here.

    If the urgency is very high (due to distance and time,) the more we are physiologically likely to crush the gun and work the trigger hard and fast. This in perfectly in line with the combat proven "convulsive grip" and perfectly in line with the balance of speed and accuracy that is necessary for the specifics of the encounter.

    As we gain distance and time incrementally, we lose urgency incrementally. We lose the physiological desire to crush the gun and work the trigger fast and hard incrementally. We begin to shift "the balance of speed and accuracy" more towards the accuracy portion of the equation incrementally. The grip lightens and the trigger is worked with more finesse incrementally.

    This is a seamless "sliding scale" approach that allows us to be the very best that we can be from one inch to two hundred yards.

    And it fits perfectly into what is natural, instinctive, and reflexive.

    To me the grip is all about the speed on the trigger. When we connect the "distance" to the "urgency" it is clear that the closer you are the faster you are going to want to be on the trigger. The faster you are going to want to be on the trigger, the more recoil control you are going to need.

    For a precision shot at distance all I want is that "one perfect shot." Now I may string a few of "the one perfect shot" together, but it is not about being fast and accurate. It is all about being accurate. Recoil control is low priority compared to trigger control. Relax, focus on the front sight, and prrrreeesss.

    At mid range we are looking for that perfect balance of speed and accuracy. We are looking to get back on the sights as quickly as we can, as we recover from recoil. The grip tension is what gives us our quick “sighted shooting” follow through.

    When behind in the reactionary curve and the activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System, the physiological response is to squeeze the gun tighter (convulsive grip) than we do on the range. This is perfect because we need excellent recoil control and the extremely quick point shooters follow through due to the higher urgency.

    Way behind in the reactionary curve with extreme activation of the Sympathetic Nervous System. Death grip on the gun....working the trigger as fast as you can.....making the gun “sound like a machine gun.” The recoil control and the point shooters follow through comes out of the death grip.

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  3. #32
    Member Array LethalStang's Avatar
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    Look, all due respect to your rocket science explanations about grip continuums and the such, but when we are talking about fractions of seconds to "act" on a threat, this kind of stuff just clouds the mind. I believe in finding a quality firearm that feels natural in the hand and while aquiring a target, and practice with that gun until it is almost like breathing. All of this others stuff is just fluff.
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  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LethalStang View Post
    Look, all due respect to your rocket science explanations about grip continuums and the such, but when we are talking about fractions of seconds to "act" on a threat, this kind of stuff just clouds the mind. I believe in finding a quality firearm that feels natural in the hand and while aquiring a target, and practice with that gun until it is almost like breathing. All of this others stuff is just fluff.
    Yes, I agree, with all due respect. Let's see if we can turn this around to a constructive conversation.

    I teach natural, instinctive, and reflexive material. Everything that I teach is to make you better at the subconscious level. Better understanding allows you to reach higher skill levels more quickly.

    If I can not convince you to read what the students are saying about my courses, then this conversation is not going to improve. I will just be telling you the truth and you will think I'm making stuff up or exaggerating. As long as you have no idea who my regular students are and what they are saying about my courses, then you really have no idea what I'm talking about.

    Everything that I teach comes out of combat proven skill sets that have been around for many decades and have been proven against live thinking resisting adversary's in combat or Force on force.

    Keep it Simple Stupid

    We have all heard this over and over again, but what does it actually mean? Many believe that it means “keep it simple or you are stupid.” The true meaning is “keep it as simple as it needs to be, but no simpler.”

    In the world of the gun its true meaning has been contorted by those that teach a certain system or methodology. These instructors taught a “one size fits all” methodology that is geared to a “lowest common denominator” mindset, inside of a “square range” mentality. They taught one stance, one grip, one means of sighting the gun, one draw stroke, and one form of retention shooting.

    Back in 2000, instructors were beginning to step outside of this tight little box. There began an age of enlightenment. Terms such as “integration” “continuum” “matrix” and “progression” would send all of the old guard guru worshipers into a frenzied state, throwing KISS rule haymakers at every new concept that they did not understand. It is this lack of understanding that is the crux of the problem…..not the fluid concepts.

    This new breed of instructors were taking what they knew and testing it in force on force (FOF.) To many of these instructors, the limitations of their past training became very apparent. It became very obvious that the past training had kept things much too simple. It was so simple, that it did not work against a thinking, breathing, resisting, and aggressive adversary. Remember, “keep it as simple as it needs to be, but no simpler.” If the past KISS training failed miserably inside of properly structured FOF, it is very apparent that this contorted KISS ideology was the main factor in this failure.

    “The More You Sweat in Training, the Less You Bleed in Combat”

    Simply said, “Put in the work!”

    So, what is the work that we need to put in? Go out and learn the fundamentals. As soon as you have safety down, the draw stroke down, and you can keep the gun running and hitting……you need to take these basics into professionally structured FOF. Here is where you find out that the fundamentals are nowhere near good enough. Here is where you find out that you need to sweat a hell of a lot more, so that you do not bleed so much. Here is where you find out that you need to be more “well rounded” and versatile. Here is where you find out that you need to be able to work at the subconscious level…..because that conscious level KISS training fell flat on it face.

    The epiphany is complete. You now understand that keeping it simple in training does not equate to doing well in a confrontation. “Gun fighting is a thinking mans game.” The only way for you to keep it simple inside of a confrontation is by putting in the work while training. You need to work with solid natural/instinctive concepts…..ones that can be accessed by the caveman brain at the subconscious level. This breaks us away from that “one size fits all” technique based training and leads us into much more natural and fluid concepts. These fluid concepts begin to cover a much larger portion of the fight continuum. Even though they cover much more ground that are actually simpler to access and perform while under pressure. They are simpler due to the fact that they are more natural and instinctive. You have also put in the work in training, so that you have an understanding and comfort level that leads to a “just do it” state of mind.

    It is this “just do it” state of mind that is the true meaning of KISS!

    The recently contorted KISS concept is for the lowest common denominator. This is for those that do not learn, do not train, and do not practice. Every top athlete that I have ever seen has a vast number of skills, techniques, and tactics ingrained at a subconscious level. They can access these ingrained responses easily....at top speed, with zero conscious thought. They can also transition from one, to another, to another seamlessly. This is what all students of the art, that are serious about their training, should be striving for…..fluidity!

    “Be like water” Bruce Lee

  5. #34
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    I can say from my personal experience in the military that a lot of what Sweatn is saying is true. You have to be able to smoothly transition from marksmanship to combat tactics and from one position to another to be truly proficient. And a lot of SWAT, LE, and military folks ARE seeking out Suarez training for this reason. I know the Marine Corps has really upgraded our training during the past 8 years with an emphasis on transitioning between shooting positions, shooting on the move and integrating the fundamentals of long-range marksmanship with CQB and middle-distance shooting such as in an urban environment.

    I can't tell you how many times in my MOUT training (Military Operations on Urban Terrain) we were told, "Urban warfare is three-dimensional!" It's become a mantra amongst us. We also talk about the three-block war: i.e. civilians on one block (humanitarian), patrolling on another (peace-keeping), and a firefight on another (direct combat). Our goal is Absolute Operational Agility. The three-block war concept can often become tactically condensed when operating in confined spaces, such as a single house or building complex. The three elements are still there, but in a much smaller place. Adaptability, judgment and corresponding physical responses become even more critical.

    This applies to the individual concerned with self-defense as well as to the modern warrior, as a self-defense scenario involving deadly force is a microcosm of combat.

    We train constantly on transitioning from fine-motor skills to gross-motor skills techniques, based on the amount of time we have to address the threat. Like the Force Continuum which is fluid, this is a technical continuum. This is evident more than anywhere in our Combat Marksmanship Table of shooting. Some shots in the same volley will be taken using the sights and a slow-steady squeeze from a familiar and stable position, while others will be taken using point-shooting, rapid-fire from a less-than-ideal position- all in a matter of seconds. Your grip and hold on the rifle changes significantly but through successful training evolutions, you're putting rounds in the black. Add in all of our modern body armor and high-speed gear and the adaptability of the shooter becomes profoundly important.

    With a little bit of learning to stretch our mind outside of the rote range methods and target drills, we become more complete warriors, able to protect our own life and the lives of those around us. The biggest struggle we face in training our young Marines in Combat Marksmanship is to "get out of the box"- they're still thinking like they're on the KD range.

    It may sound like some hoodoo-voodoo mystical zen to some, but the fact is it is a big-picture integrated system that produces more proficient, efficient, confident and competent warriors. The Marines are doing this. I'm glad to see that Suarez and Co are offering it to folks who don't wear the uniform, but who nevertheless bear the responsibilities of protecting themselves and those with whom they live, laugh and love.

    Semper Fi
    NRA Certified Instructor (6 years)
    Former LEO/DOD Contractor
    Active Duty Marine (Martial Arts Instructor)
    Glock 17, Kel-Tec P-11, S&W Model 60, various rifles

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCorps79 View Post
    I can say from my personal experience in the military that a lot of what Sweatn is saying is true. You have to be able to smoothly transition from marksmanship to combat tactics and from one position to another to be truly proficient. And a lot of SWAT, LE, and military folks ARE seeking out Suarez training for this reason. I know the Marine Corps has really upgraded our training during the past 8 years with an emphasis on transitioning between shooting positions, shooting on the move and integrating the fundamentals of long-range marksmanship with CQB and middle-distance shooting such as in an urban environment.

    I can't tell you how many times in my MOUT training (Military Operations on Urban Terrain) we were told, "Urban warfare is three-dimensional!" It's become a mantra amongst us. We also talk about the three-block war: i.e. civilians on one block (humanitarian), patrolling on another (peace-keeping), and a firefight on another (direct combat). Our goal is Absolute Operational Agility. The three-block war concept can often become tactically condensed when operating in confined spaces, such as a single house or building complex. The three elements are still there, but in a much smaller place. Adaptability, judgment and corresponding physical responses become even more critical.

    This applies to the individual concerned with self-defense as well as to the modern warrior, as a self-defense scenario involving deadly force is a microcosm of combat.

    We train constantly on transitioning from fine-motor skills to gross-motor skills techniques, based on the amount of time we have to address the threat. Like the Force Continuum which is fluid, this is a technical continuum. This is evident more than anywhere in our Combat Marksmanship Table of shooting. Some shots in the same volley will be taken using the sights and a slow-steady squeeze from a familiar and stable position, while others will be taken using point-shooting, rapid-fire from a less-than-ideal position- all in a matter of seconds. Your grip and hold on the rifle changes significantly but through successful training evolutions, you're putting rounds in the black. Add in all of our modern body armor and high-speed gear and the adaptability of the shooter becomes profoundly important.

    With a little bit of learning to stretch our mind outside of the rote range methods and target drills, we become more complete warriors, able to protect our own life and the lives of those around us. The biggest struggle we face in training our young Marines in Combat Marksmanship is to "get out of the box"- they're still thinking like they're on the KD range.

    It may sound like some hoodoo-voodoo mystical zen to some, but the fact is it is a big-picture integrated system that produces more proficient, efficient, confident and competent warriors. The Marines are doing this. I'm glad to see that Suarez and Co are offering it to folks who don't wear the uniform, but who nevertheless bear the responsibilities of protecting themselves and those with whom they live, laugh and love.

    Semper Fi
    Soldier, you sure can write!

    Thank you for your service.

  7. #36
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Soldier, you sure can write!

    Thank you for your service.
    Except that I'm a Marine.

    Soldiers are in the Army

    Thanks!

    Semper Fi
    NRA Certified Instructor (6 years)
    Former LEO/DOD Contractor
    Active Duty Marine (Martial Arts Instructor)
    Glock 17, Kel-Tec P-11, S&W Model 60, various rifles

  8. #37
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCorps79 View Post
    Except that I'm a Marine.

    Soldiers are in the Army

    Thanks!

    Semper Fi
    Very sorry about that Marine. Let me make it up to you.

    If I am ever in your AO running a course, feel free to stop in.

    The course will be on me. Just give me a heads up.

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    HardCorps79:
    What type of point shooting is the USMC teaching?
    Does it include handguns as well as rifles?
    Is it based on the WW2 or a more modern approach?

  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I am one who has been to one of Sweatnbullets Point shooting classes. With in just a few hours he had the class doing thing that I for one thought I could never do before going.

    Do and see what you have to to make the shot: speed of need to act, movement and distants all plays a part. While doing dynamic movement one handed shooting you will find has less movement of the gun than 2 handed. Therefore better control over shot placement. Out to 7-10 yrds there is no need for sight picture to make combat hit on targets. the need for indexing may increase but no need for perfect sight picture. As you increase distance the need for a more perfect sight picture increase and the speed on the trigger will need to slow down to make the hits.

    It is not BULL **** nor is it BLOWING SMOKE when the man can do what he says he can do. So if what you are reading from Roger make sense or sounds like something you would like to be able to do take note it can be done and he can show you how.

    Hope this make sense as I am in a hurry and I usally think faster than I can type.

    Just my experience Suarez and Roger's training

  11. #40
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    Matthew-
    We don't really refer to it as "point shooting", though essentially that's what it is. Very few Marines have just a pistol as their primary weapon in combat theater. Most officers and SNCOs will also opt to carry at least an M-4.

    With regards to the rifle, it is simply close-quarters point and shoot techniques, looking over the top of the rifle, with both eyes open and roughly lining up the barrel and front sight assembly on your target. At 25 yards, you should be putting rounds on target. It essentially comes down to muscle memory and familiarity with the weapon.

    It's mostly based off of the experience of our operating forces in the current conflicts bringing home lessons learned and incorporating them formally into our training procedures. It's less "technical" than it is practical. They're saying, "This is what we learned in such-and-such an engagement. Here's what worked, here's what didn't. Here's how we can pass the knowledge on to the next bunch of kids that have to go over and do what we did, and maybe save some lives."

    Our CMIs (Combaty Marksmanship Instructors) don't tend to look at it inside of a "warrior ethos" philosophy, but rather as a matter of "stop thinking like a recruit, start being a professional. Do this and you'll be a better killer."

    MAIs (Martial Arts Instructors) tend to get a bit more into the development of the whole warrior concept. Our motto is "One mind, any weapon". We focus on hoplology, warrior studies, warrior culture studies, and developing not just hand-to-hand techniques, but building on Mental, Moral and Physical strength. A triangle is the strongest linear shape. If you take away any of those three attributes, it collapses in on itself. Anyone can learn techniques, anyone can learn philosophy/hoplology/military history, anyone can follow certain rules or right/wrong. But it takes a full-time 24/7 commitment to develop a fully integrated professional warrior exhibits moral courage and mental discipline as well as technical and tactical proficiency.

    Semper Fi
    NRA Certified Instructor (6 years)
    Former LEO/DOD Contractor
    Active Duty Marine (Martial Arts Instructor)
    Glock 17, Kel-Tec P-11, S&W Model 60, various rifles

  12. #41
    Member Array HardCorps79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    Very sorry about that Marine. Let me make it up to you. If I am ever in your AO running a course, feel free to stop in. The course will be on me. Just give me a heads up.
    No problem. At least you didn't ask if I was in the Navy ("We saw the navy blue and the anchors and just thought..." Nice. )

    I'm currently in KC but will probably PCS to the Seattle-Tacoma area in the summer. I'll keep an eye out to see if you get out that way. Otherwise, I've got a ton of leave stored up. May have to take a vacation to NV. Thanks!

    Semper Fi
    NRA Certified Instructor (6 years)
    Former LEO/DOD Contractor
    Active Duty Marine (Martial Arts Instructor)
    Glock 17, Kel-Tec P-11, S&W Model 60, various rifles

  13. #42
    Member Array 7677's Avatar
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    The premise of this whole thread... could be summed up with the following: if the person develops the proper eye/hand coordination then the angle of the grip on any particular handgun does not play as big of a role as certain people claim it does. Eye/hand coordination is what makes this possible!

    Back in 2000, instructors were beginning to step outside of this tight little box. There began an age of enlightenment. Terms such as “integration” “continuum” “matrix” and “progression” would send all of the old guard guru worshipers into a frenzied state, throwing KISS rule haymakers at every new concept that they did not understand. It is this lack of understanding that is the crux of the problem…..not the fluid concepts.

    This new breed of instructors were taking what they knew and testing it in force on force (FOF.) To many of these instructors, the limitations of their past training became very apparent. It became very obvious that the past training had kept things much too simple. It was so simple, that it did not work against a thinking, breathing, resisting, and aggressive adversary. Remember, “keep it as simple as it needs to be, but no simpler.” If the past KISS training failed miserably inside of properly structured FOF, it is very apparent that this contorted KISS ideology was the main factor in this failure.
    Roger is correct about this but 99% of the posts he has made in this thread is material he has learned from this new breed of instructors not concepts he discovered on his own. With that said, my comments are not to take away from his teaching ability nor cast any shadows on the core concepts but to point out that most of this material is not new and Soldiers and Marines have been using this stuff for generations regardless of the new and improved name or brand.

    Being one of these so called new breed of instructors, I used FOF as a tool to show the so called "old guard guru worshipers" the flaws in certain techniques they advocated. As a matter of fact, one of these gentlemen was Suarez himself. It is pretty amazing to see his progression since then and to respond to a phrase he once told Matt Temkin and I...I guess the proof was really in the pudding wasn't it?

    I honestly believe the so called "old guard guru worshipers'" downfall with their brand of gun fighting was they based too much of their material around the gun itself and not enough around the fight!
    Last edited by 7677; December 30th, 2009 at 04:36 PM.
    "TOUJOURS PRET"

  14. #43
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Very good post 7677:I was going to come back this afternoon and post more from this morning but you have done it better than I.

    Once you have learned the how to with one gun the body will do what is needed from there. Show the body and mind what is parallel to the ground with any other gun grip angle and the body will see and do what is needed to make good hits.

  15. #44
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    While FOF is wonderful an instructor--especially one without combat experience--should be careful NOT to base opinions SOLELY on the concepts learned through the drills/outcomes of FOF.
    In other words one should be very careful not to be too eager to tweak
    what one has learned from combat vets/combat proven systems due to a perceived "something is missing and FOF proves it" mindset.
    Or, dare I say, over complicate the techniques or the applications.
    My father was a WW2 ranger with extensive combat from Africa to Anzio and his explanations could be had in words or at most a sentence.
    A trait that is very common with men who are "been and done".
    Which is why I am very content to pass along the combat wisdom of those who taught me rather than make "improvements" on things that I could never fully comprehend unless under fire.

  16. #45
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCorps79 View Post
    Matthew-
    We don't really refer to it as "point shooting", though essentially that's what it is. Very few Marines have just a pistol as their primary weapon in combat theater. Most officers and SNCOs will also opt to carry at least an M-4.

    With regards to the rifle, it is simply close-quarters point and shoot techniques, looking over the top of the rifle, with both eyes open and roughly lining up the barrel and front sight assembly on your target. At 25 yards, you should be putting rounds on target. It essentially comes down to muscle memory and familiarity with the weapon.

    It's mostly based off of the experience of our operating forces in the current conflicts bringing home lessons learned and incorporating them formally into our training procedures. It's less "technical" than it is practical. They're saying, "This is what we learned in such-and-such an engagement. Here's what worked, here's what didn't. Here's how we can pass the knowledge on to the next bunch of kids that have to go over and do what we did, and maybe save some lives."

    Our CMIs (Combaty Marksmanship Instructors) don't tend to look at it inside of a "warrior ethos" philosophy, but rather as a matter of "stop thinking like a recruit, start being a professional. Do this and you'll be a better killer."

    MAIs (Martial Arts Instructors) tend to get a bit more into the development of the whole warrior concept. Our motto is "One mind, any weapon". We focus on hoplology, warrior studies, warrior culture studies, and developing not just hand-to-hand techniques, but building on Mental, Moral and Physical strength. A triangle is the strongest linear shape. If you take away any of those three attributes, it collapses in on itself. Anyone can learn techniques, anyone can learn philosophy/hoplology/military history, anyone can follow certain rules or right/wrong. But it takes a full-time 24/7 commitment to develop a fully integrated professional warrior exhibits moral courage and mental discipline as well as technical and tactical proficiency.

    Semper Fi
    Thanks.
    What you are describing is reflexive fire/front sight index fire/point shoulder fire, which has been around for decades.
    In fact 7677 was teaching this in his army days nearly two decades ago.
    No doubt troops under fire today are very adapt at figuring these things out for themselves.
    Good job.

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