Point VS Aimed Fire?

This is a discussion on Point VS Aimed Fire? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey JerryM: Absolutely agree with you. I have a laser on my 38 and there is no way I can shoot as fast using it ...

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Thread: Point VS Aimed Fire?

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey JerryM: Absolutely agree with you. I have a laser on my 38 and there is no way I can shoot as fast using it as I can just pointing and shooting. It may be less than a second but at 5ft or so, which is the distance that FBI stats say are most shootings, that "less than a second" might as well be an hour.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array JAT40's Avatar
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    It's no sights for me, I carry for self defense not offense. Train from bad breath ranges (point blank) to 25ft out. From the holster and on the move preferably toward cover.

    Shooting one handed on the move I find to be most accurate point shooting. I stay hyper focused on a small area inside the COM and let the lead fly, been able to hit the same hole on target.

    Also practice multiple assailants, shooting while sitting, kneeling and prone positions.

    I would encourage all who carry to take a point shooting class, see for yourself. Best training $$$ you will spend and could save your life. IMHO
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    Should come as natural as pointing your finger ; )
    H/D
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
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    LaserLyte makes an excellent Pistol Laser Trainer that's great for the practice of point shooting:

    LaserLyte : Rear Sight RL-1 : Laser Trainer Pro LT-PRO : Kryptonyte Gun Sight K-15 : North American Laser NAA-1 : Bayonet Green PB-1G : Bayonet Tan PB-1T : Bayonet Stainless PB-2 : Kryptonyte K-50

    Shop around online, I found mine for about $78.
    "It's a big gun when I carry it, it is also a big gun when I take it out” – Clint Smith

  6. #20
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    That quote I personally would have to disagree with, learning to point shoot the tried and true way is much faster than having to look for the dot and get it on the target. Point shooting you look at the target and the gun follows the eyes. No need to look for anything but the target. I use to think I needed night sights on my EDC but not any more.

    But to each his own!!
    I agree with everything you wrote, except I don't believe that point shooting makes night sights irrelevant.

    As I learned it, while looking at the target, you should still be seeing the end of the barrel of your gun through your peripheral vision, and a front night sight would, IMO, help with that.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  7. #21
    Member Array Looney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyC4 View Post
    LaserLyte makes an excellent Pistol Laser Trainer that's great for the practice of point shooting:

    LaserLyte : Rear Sight RL-1 : Laser Trainer Pro LT-PRO : Kryptonyte Gun Sight K-15 : North American Laser NAA-1 : Bayonet Green PB-1G : Bayonet Tan PB-1T : Bayonet Stainless PB-2 : Kryptonyte K-50

    Shop around online, I found mine for about $78.
    i like that jimmy very nice

  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    I agree with everything you wrote, except I don't believe that point shooting makes night sights irrelevant.

    As I learned it, while looking at the target, you should still be seeing the end of the barrel of your gun through your peripheral vision, and a front night sight would, IMO, help with that.

    I carry XDsc with night sights and XD service without, was wanting night sights on service. But since I took the PS class and from what I have heard no longer feel the need. This is hearsay as I have never been there as of yet and hope never to be. But I have heard that with the use of a flashlight and the flash from the muzzle the night sights wash out because of loss of your night vision making them useless. Also my eye sight is getting to the point I have trouble seeing iron sights anyway. My perpheral vision picks up the whole slide not just the sight. In the dark where you can not see slide muscle memory will take over and hits will still be made.

  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Ron: I think you are pushing the argument a bit when you use the term peripheral vision, and throwing the front sight into the equation. For good point shooting you should be focussing on the subject and ANY other view is, at least IMO, not advisable. Remember what "peripheral" means---concerned with non-essential aspects of the subject in question, with "non-essential" being the key words. Hey, if you point shoot better while taking a whiff of your front sight---whatever floats your boat. Just sayin. I think we still agree that for fast defensive response with short distances between you and the slime--point shooting should be in everyone's practice regimen and field of expertise.

  10. #24
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    IMO everyone should have a blend of both point and aimed shooting training

    point blank to 3 yards-no sights needed, you should be able to shoot from the hip or outstretched arm (not using sights) and shoot well

    from 3-7 yards you should be able to point shoot or just cover the target with view of the back of your slide and get appropriate hits

    outside this range sights come in order for accurate hits to the vital zones

    we practice all this along with shots from 25 yards, using sights from anything outside 7 yards, all in day and night/low light,
    night sights help acquire the sight picture in low light but they are not needed or necessary for anything at close ranges
    After going through training with night sights I do prefer having them, especially since most of my shift is in low/no light
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  11. #25
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    IMO everyone should have a blend of both point and aimed shooting training

    point blank to 3 yards-no sights needed, you should be able to shoot from the hip or outstretched arm (not using sights) and shoot well

    from 3-7 yards you should be able to point shoot or just cover the target with view of the back of your slide and get appropriate hits

    outside this range sights come in order for accurate hits to the vital zones

    we practice all this along with shots from 25 yards, using sights from anything outside 7 yards, all in day and night/low light,
    night sights help acquire the sight picture in low light but they are not needed or necessary for anything at close ranges
    After going through training with night sights I do prefer having them, especially since most of my shift is in low/no light
    Sounds like a plan and a good program.

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Thank you MT for all your comments on point shooting on this and other forums. Knowing how to point shoot should be part of everyone's defensive training along with the more conventional aim, sights, lasers etc. I am confident of my ability to use my firearms' sights etc and I am now trying to be a master of point shooting which, I am convinced, is the most important thing I can learn for intimate defense.

  13. #27
    Ron
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Hey Ron: I think you are pushing the argument a bit when you use the term peripheral vision, and throwing the front sight into the equation. For good point shooting you should be focussing on the subject and ANY other view is, at least IMO, not advisable. Remember what "peripheral" means---concerned with non-essential aspects of the subject in question, with "non-essential" being the key words. Hey, if you point shoot better while taking a whiff of your front sight---whatever floats your boat. Just sayin. I think we still agree that for fast defensive response with short distances between you and the slime--point shooting should be in everyone's practice regimen and field of expertise.
    I never mentioned looking at the front sight. The guy who taught me "Quick Kill" point shooting taught me to look at the target, not the front sight, but to also be seeing the front of the barrel of your gun, yes through your peripheal vision. The focus remains on the target.That is very different then looking at your front sight.

    However, I think that we are quibbling over terminology, and really don't disgree.
    "It does not do to leave a dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him."

    J. R. R. Tolkien

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Ron: I think you are right. We are both on same page. I believe it behooves all of us who are serious about defensive carry to know ALL the possible methods for same; point shoot is just one of them. It should also be noted, IMO, that all the actual shooting scenarios, as critical and important as they are, should (you would hope and pray) take a back seat to situational awareness, avoidance, etc etc, so they never come into play. The best defense is never having to be there in the first place. Even though I am serious about all this, I am 68 and have NEVER been in a situation where a firearm was something I even came close to needing and I am from NYC/NJ--not exactly the peace and harmony center of the US.

  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    I am a person who looks at the firearm as a CCW for personal defense at distances that are nowhere near distances beyond the 21 foot standard for being able to defend myself. I recreation target shoot with a a 22 and although some friends have scopes etc, I do not want to get into that kind of "aim game". My CC firearms are a 38 and a 380. The 38 is the house and maybe the car gun, and the 380 is the CC. There is no doubt in my mind that point shooting is definitely the preferred defensive posture, particularly since I can only foresee the use of the firearm within the 21 ft and requiring a quick reaction on my part. Aiming with a sight takes more time and within the shorter distance does little to make me place center mass any better than is necessary. I continue to practice point shooting and are confident that I can hit what my eyes and nose are looking at. Also trying point shooting from the hip, which provides me with a little more time and protects my arm and firearm from being pushed away as easily as it is when extended in the classic shooting stance. I do not believe that I will have the time to be "aiming" with the sights, particularly since the 38 and the 380 have minimal sights and I foresee my danger more at night than in daytime, which further frustrates any attempt to "aim" with the sights. I am not looking at this as combat etc--just plain old defense, which, most likely, will never happen. I personally believe that good old common sense and situational awareness that has served me well for 68 years, is worth more than my firearm, but there is always the what if. Comments? Agreement? Appreciate your reply.
    I agree my friend. Nothing to add to this.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  16. #30
    Member Array mike benedict's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryM View Post
    Be aware that the laser sights may slow you down. That is my limited experience. A friend, who is a firearms instructor, has several guns with the CT sights. He recently went to a training class, and although not part of the class, he and the instructor tried the CT. Both agreed that the sights resulted in slower shots. In the dark fine, but I tried them yesterday, and I would not want them.

    Regards,
    Jerry
    Not true at all. Once you learn proper technique for shooting with lasers they are significantly faster.
    Anyone in the Atlanta area that wants to go to the range with me I would be happy to prove my point.

    Mike

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