Point VS Aimed Fire?

Point VS Aimed Fire?

This is a discussion on Point VS Aimed Fire? within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; No matter how often it is stated that point shooting is a compliment--not a replacement--to sighted shooting, some still claim that we are advising against ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    Point VS Aimed Fire?

    No matter how often it is stated that point shooting is a compliment--not a replacement--to sighted shooting, some still claim that we are advising against the use of the sights.
    Rather than, once again, clarifying this myth, allow me to quote two of the main sources....

    "The training course must be balanced, with equal emphasis on the aimed shot and on combat type training...After initial familiarization and training on the target range, the shooter should be required to shoot regularly a balanced program of both types of shooting as long as he remains on the active list"...( pg 105 Kill or Get Killed)

    " In training groups of men in combat firing, it is very important that the proper introduction be given. in the introductory phase, the differences between target firing and combat firing must be clearly defined. Each must be put in it's proper perspective.
    it must be stressed that each way of firing complements the other, to make the ideal hand gun user." ( pg 123, KOGK.)

    "Such devices would be impractical for the training system which we advocate, and this will be clear if we add that we have to make provisions for such differing demands as two handed shooting at 25 yards, hip shooting at practically point blank range and practices which entail running at full speed a certain distance down the range in order to fire at several suddenly appearing moving targets." ( pg 67, Shooting to Live.)

    While we are at it, how about:
    "Criminals favor darkness or semi darkness fort he exercise of their talents, and a large proportion of the shooting affrays in which the police are concerned take place under precisely those conditions.
    We venture to suggest that every man who has to use a pistol in the course of duty should learn how to do so in the dark." ( pgs 63-64, STL)

    So---the intergration of point and aimed fire, the need to sprint toward the sound of the guns ( as in Active Shooter) and the advice to learn low light skills...
    All preached decades before most of us--even yours truly--were ever born.


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    I am a person who looks at the firearm as a CCW for personal defense at distances that are nowhere near distances beyond the 21 foot standard for being able to defend myself. I recreation target shoot with a a 22 and although some friends have scopes etc, I do not want to get into that kind of "aim game". My CC firearms are a 38 and a 380. The 38 is the house and maybe the car gun, and the 380 is the CC. There is no doubt in my mind that point shooting is definitely the preferred defensive posture, particularly since I can only foresee the use of the firearm within the 21 ft and requiring a quick reaction on my part. Aiming with a sight takes more time and within the shorter distance does little to make me place center mass any better than is necessary. I continue to practice point shooting and are confident that I can hit what my eyes and nose are looking at. Also trying point shooting from the hip, which provides me with a little more time and protects my arm and firearm from being pushed away as easily as it is when extended in the classic shooting stance. I do not believe that I will have the time to be "aiming" with the sights, particularly since the 38 and the 380 have minimal sights and I foresee my danger more at night than in daytime, which further frustrates any attempt to "aim" with the sights. I am not looking at this as combat etc--just plain old defense, which, most likely, will never happen. I personally believe that good old common sense and situational awareness that has served me well for 68 years, is worth more than my firearm, but there is always the what if. Comments? Agreement? Appreciate your reply.

  3. #3
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    My $0.02 is the rest of my EDC or defensive guns will have Lasers on them. That is the easiest point and shoot ever. Look at the 7 videos on the Crimsion Trace Website and you will see the 'low light' shooting they train in.
    NRA Certified Rifle/Pistol Instructor
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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spec View Post
    My $0.02 is the rest of my EDC or defensive guns will have Lasers on them. That is the easiest point and shoot ever. Look at the 7 videos on the Crimsion Trace Website and you will see the 'low light' shooting they train in.
    That quote I personally would have to disagree with, learning to point shoot the tried and true way is much faster than having to look for the dot and get it on the target. Point shooting you look at the target and the gun follows the eyes. No need to look for anything but the target. I use to think I needed night sights on my EDC but not any more.

    But to each his own!!

  5. #5
    Member Array Bigpoppa48's Avatar
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    KelCarry, Very well said although you have me by a few years(49yrs. young) I carry a S&WM&P357Sig with Crimson Trace Laser grip which make point shooting alot easier. I totally agree with that 21ft. rule which in all likely hood is the distance or less than that a deadly confrontation will take place. I practice shooting from the hip all the time which the laser comes in real handy. I have property behind my house that I practice on so I don't need to go to the range and fire hundreds of rounds in a session just to get my money worth and I am thankful for that besides, there is a safety issue at public ranges because you never know who is in the stall next to you that do not practice good safety habits and all it takes is one mistake and someone is cripple for life or worst.

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    OD*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin View Post
    "The training course must be balanced...
    Why is it, that so many people just cannot seem to comprehend this very basic idea?

    "My way is the only way!"
    "The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    That quote I personally would have to disagree with, learning to point shoot the tried and true way is much faster than having to look for the dot and get it on the target. Point shooting you look at the target and the gun follows the eyes. No need to look for anything but the target. I use to think I needed night sights on my EDC but not any more.

    But to each his own!!
    Exactly! Point shooting in a WalMart parking lot situation will not give you enough time to even think about looking for a 'dot'.
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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    There is absolutely nothing that is black and white, except that... there is nothing that is black and white.

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey Y'all: In my post, when I say less than 21 ft, and I talk about point shooting, I am really talking about actually shooting at probably less than 5 ft and at that distance looking for a laser dot or looking for your sights is essentially an impossibility--that only leaves point shooting, which, at that distance is going to hit center mass, IF you have practiced and are proficient. When the situation is at that small distance (say 5 ft), it has already escalated from the 21ft distance, you have your firearm essentially out of your holster at your side, and you can still avoid firing for that last second if you know point shooting. It's just another and very useful and practical tool for your defense and not a "my way or the highway" discussion.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    I would point shoot. By the time you see the sights it's going to be all over for you.

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Tried to point shoot today with my 38 and my 380. Put target at about 4 yards and had at it. The target was essentially the size of my body mass. I was aiming for center body mass and fired a total of 38 times. All 38 shots were at least within some part of the body mass (not necessarily center). For 12 feet or so, I was pleasantly surprised. Did notice, particularly with the 38 that a number of the shots were slightly low and to the left--then I remembered that when I compared point shoot aim to sight aim with my dominant eye, my point shoot aim was always slightly low and to the left. When I purposely pointed but moved the 38 slightly high and to the right before I shot, I was centered fairly well. I'm encouraged and will continue to hone this skill as well as try some hip-point shooting. I really believe leaving out sighting or searching for a laser saves me that extra half a second or more, which will be vital at say under 12 ft. I would hope that more people familiarize themselves with point shooting--it can add another dimension to their defensive strategy and safety.

  12. #12
    EW3
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    Larry Seecamp makes a good point about sights on CCW pistols. His stance is that sights of any kind are an OFFENSIVE tool, taken from the military, where a pistol is used in an offensive capacity as well as defensive.

    Therefore, he is a big proponent of point shooting, and none of his pistols have any sights at all. With my Seecamp and the LCP I used to have, I found that point shooting made much more sense, was faster, and with practice was just as effective as lining up sights carefully.

    Remember, the bad guy isn't going to let you have time to line up sights and life or death may come down to who draws and fires first!
    "Naked and Starving as They are We Cannot Enough Admire the Incomparable Patience and Fidelity of the Soldiery" Ė George Washington, Valley Forge, 1777.

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Hey EW3: You are absolutely right. When I go "shooting" at a gunshop here in the Charleston, SC area, my friends will bring along 9mms and spend what appears to be an eternity sighting and lining up the shot. Yes they can hit within a confined target area but what for? For the time it takes them to aim and fire, a perp could have done away with them and spent their money on dinner. If I want to target shoot I bring my 22 and aim. Other than that, once I have developed an appreciation of my 38 and my 380, I want to point shoot for exactly the reasons you say. As I just said in my last post, getting kind of good at it and certainly hit mass (maybe not all center mass but mass nonethelesss). Got to try hip/point shooting--another bit of a second saved without the vulnerable extension of the arm.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Matthew Temkin's Avatar
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    7677's Grandfather, who was a Marine raider in WW2, summed it all up when he said, "If you are using your sights at close range then you are shooting too slow!!"

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array JerryM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spec View Post
    My $0.02 is the rest of my EDC or defensive guns will have Lasers on them. That is the easiest point and shoot ever. Look at the 7 videos on the Crimsion Trace Website and you will see the 'low light' shooting they train in.
    Be aware that the laser sights may slow you down. That is my limited experience. A friend, who is a firearms instructor, has several guns with the CT sights. He recently went to a training class, and although not part of the class, he and the instructor tried the CT. Both agreed that the sights resulted in slower shots. In the dark fine, but I tried them yesterday, and I would not want them.

    Regards,
    Jerry

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