UGLY Negligent Discharge in Orlando (Merged)

This is a discussion on UGLY Negligent Discharge in Orlando (Merged) within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ORLANDO — Police in Orlando say a 50-year-old man taking a firearms certification course was shot in the foot after the instructor’s gun discharged. The ...

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Thread: UGLY Negligent Discharge in Orlando (Merged)

  1. #16
    Member Array jsjdjn's Avatar
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    Gun instructor shoots student in the foot

    ORLANDO — Police in Orlando say a 50-year-old
    man taking a firearms certification course was shot
    in the foot after the instructor’s gun discharged.

    The incident happened Saturday morning at a
    certification class for carrying concealed firearms.

    The student, Robert Frauman Jr., was taken to
    Florida Hospital with non-life threatening injuries.

    No further details were provided by authorities

    ASSOCIATED PRESS • February 21, 2010
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    The Orlando Sentinel has a more detailed story:

    NRA gun instructor shoots student by accident
    Instructor’s gun goes off, striking student in foot

    Eloísa Ruano González
    Orlando Sentinel
    12:24 a.m. EST, February 21, 2010

    A gun instructor accidently shot a student in the foot Saturday during an NRA class to receive certification to carry a concealed weapon, Orlando police said.

    Robert Frauman Jr., 50, was taken to Florida Hospital after instructor Michael Phillips' firearm discharged about 11:45 a.m., police said.

    Phillips, 32, could not be reached for comment. The accident happened at Summit Church, located in a former movie theater near he Fashion Square mall.

    The bullet went through a table before it hit Frauman, said Kristy-Lee Lawley, the church's communications director. She said Frauman, a member of the church, was "recovering well" and the bullet didn't break any bones.

    Frauman was one of three students in the class, which was not a church-sponsored event, Lawley said. She said the church offered an upstairs conference room for free after some church members requested to have the class there. Lawley said the church is empty on Saturdays and this was the first class of its kind there.

    "We won't be having anything like that in our church in the future," Lawley said.

    The church with 2,500 members is headed by Pastor Isaac Hunter, son of the Rev. Joel Hunter, senior pastor of the Longwood-based megachurch Northland, A Church Distributed. The churches are not affiliated.

    The NRA has a rule against bringing ammunition into a class, said Tom Wagner, a NRA instructor in Orlando who was not involved in Saturday's shooting. He said the association has "no problem yanking a certification if the rules are being broken."

    This was not the first time something's gone wrong during a gun demonstration in Orlando. In 2004, a special agent with the Drug Enforcement Administration shot himself in the thigh with a .40-caliber Glock pistol while talking to schoolchildren about gun safety.
    NRA gun instructor accidentally shoots student in foot - OrlandoSentinel.com

  4. #18
    Member Array jsjdjn's Avatar
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    I vote to yank his permit!!!!
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  5. #19
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    Yank him in the side of the head

  6. #20
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    NRA Instructor Rule #1 NO LIVE AMMO IN THE CLASSROOM

  7. #21
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    Florida now has a "dance" requirement for CCW permit. J/K! This really looks bad.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Now there goes yet another location for instruction thanks to the _negligence_ of a bone headed 'instructor'.

    Thanks fer nuthin, Phillips!

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #23
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    I also vote for the NRA to yank his certifications.
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  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    The last paragraph implies this is a dangerously frequent occurance:
    This was not the first time something's gone wrong during a gun demonstration in Orlando.
    And then they follow it up with the most recent occurance they could find... SIX YEARS AGO.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  11. #25
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    This guy is an idiot. The Brady fools just love it when stuff like this happens so they can make a crusade out of it. Gotta be careful...

  12. #26
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    Newsflash....fools with guns are dangerous....

  13. #27
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsjdjn View Post
    I vote to yank his permit!!!!
    Really?......For how long?

    The AD or ND whatever you want to call it was unfortunate but do you guys really think he should lose his CCW permit?
    I would agree with having it revoked until the guy can prove that he had gone through some number of remedial training hours. After the AD and some remedial training he will probably be more careful with his firearm than anyone here as he's had the beegeezus scared out of him.

  14. #28
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    The instructor broke the cardnal rule... keep the booger hook off the bang switch.

    He broke the NRA instructor rule... don't bring live ammo to lecture portion of class

    He broke every rule....

    the Four Rules introduced by Colonel Jeff Cooper
    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.


    The NRA rules:

    1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
    2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
    3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.

    The Canadian Four Firearm ACTS:

    1. Assume every firearm is loaded.
    2. Control the muzzle direction at all times.
    3. Trigger finger off trigger and out of trigger guard.
    4. See that the firearm is unloaded. PROVE it safe.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jsjdjn View Post
    I vote to yank his permit!
    Really?......For how long?

    I would agree with having it revoked until the guy can prove that he had gone through some number of remedial training hours.
    Anyone can have an unintended discharge, through negligence, through lack of training, through complacency. It's an opportunity for learning, to be sure. By this instructor, the NRA folks charged with creation of the instructor curriculum, by all who hear of the situation.

    And yet, the risk of such failure is extreme. In this case, a person was merely injured. It could easily have been crippling injury or death.

    From the point of view of civil/criminal law, I think, it's in the category of Gross Negligence, given the number of violations of safety guidelines. IMO, that certainly justifies at least temporary yanking of the instructor card and possibly CHL, at least until remedial training can show improved competence.

    I just hope the Brady Bunch doesn't engage in sensitivity training with legislators in order to craft a wholesale yanking of liberties from people simply based on the remote possibility of this sort of thing occurring. Yes, it occurs by those who aren't paying attention and who get complacent. No, it doesn't happen to the vast majority of people. Thus, the risk can be contained and minimized. IMO, what can be corrected should be; and, it shouldn't go beyond that.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    ND or AD always comes down to either being lazy or uninformed...

    It only takes a quick second for someone to check to see that a gun is unloaded...

    How many ND/AD happen in basic training? Try handing the range instructor a loaded gun... see what happens you won't do it again
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

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