Something to think about...

Something to think about...

This is a discussion on Something to think about... within the Defensive Carry & Tactical Training forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I recieved this story in an email from USCCA. As far as I know it is not copyrighted and distribution is unrestricted. Something to really ...

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  1. #1
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Something to think about...

    I recieved this story in an email from USCCA. As far as I know it is not copyrighted and distribution is unrestricted.

    Something to really consider before you go play hero

    Please read carefully


    I was out walking in our neighborhood a couple of days ago around dusk. I was almost through with my walk, when I noticed a couple of girls, probably around 5 or 6 years old, walking toward me about a block away. Now our neighborhood is a middle-class, blue-collar, very safe neighborhood, so nothing unusual about this.

    A few seconds later, an earlier-model small sedan with faded paint stopped by the girls, and a man emerged and approached the girls. Still nothing particularly unusual, but I became more interested. The man was wearing dirty jeans, work boots, a dirty T-shirt and a black baseball cap. The man exchanged a few words with the girls, and then grabbed one of them by the arm. She tried to fall to the ground kicking and screaming, and her friend ran away.

    The man dragged the screaming girl around to the driver side of the car and pushed her in, and then slid in behind her. Now I was on high alert. As the vehicle started towards me, I had by then approached within about 50 yards and drawn my Glock 26. I had a clear shot at the driver's head through the windshield. As I took aim, I remembered that the Texas Penal Code gives one the right to protect the lives of third parties. Specifically, Section 9.33 reads:

    "A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:

    (1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

    (2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.The Texas CHL course is very good at educating students about the legal ramifications of concealed carry, and I had an excellent instructor. But our instructor also hit very hard on the point that we should all decide whether we would be willing to risk going to jail and depriving our families of a husband and father for many years over the death of an innocent bystander in the attempt to protect a third party.

    All of this was going through my head. This all seemed to be happening in slow motion, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Rather than shooting, I lowered my gun and got the license number of the car as it went by me. I used my cell phone to call 911 and report the abduction. Chills went through my body as a few hours later, an officer called me to let me know that they had located the car and driver at his residence a few blocks away.

    It turned out that the man was the girl's father and he stopped to pick her up on her way home because dinner was waiting. The girl had other ideas - she was determined to walk home with her next-door girl-friend
    You don't know what you don't know


  2. #2
    Senior Member Array dsee11789's Avatar
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    Yep.

    I've had people call the police on me before when they witness me detaining shoplifters. Would sure suck to get shot by some random passerby.

    One cop actually saw me running from the store and thought that I was the thief.
    Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"

  3. #3
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    One cop actually saw me running from the store and thought that I was the thief.
    That right there is some thing to really consider before you get involved

  4. #4
    Member Array SAMI's Avatar
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    Scary stuff.
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  5. #5
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    This is why I'm constantly saying I don't have enough information to get involved most of the time

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Ill leave my bat cape in the closet.
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  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    This is why I'm constantly saying I don't have enough information to get involved most of the time
    Agree, most of the time.
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  8. #8
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsee11789 View Post
    Yep.

    I've had people call the police on me before when they witness me detaining shoplifters. Would sure suck to get shot by some random passerby.

    One cop actually saw me running from the store and thought that I was the thief.
    I hate to sidetrack this thread but this is sorta related... Would sure suck to get shot or have your arms ripped out of the sockets and get beat to death with them by the person you're trying to "detain" too...

    I'm curious, are you LEO or Private/contracted Security? If not LEO what involves detaining? How is detainment determined justifiable? Are you uniformed security or plain clothes?

    Someone attempts to detain me and they're not uniformed/marked LEO from an local, state, or fed agency I recognize and haven't made it abundantly clear who they are, S is going to HTF if/when things get physical(which is basically a requirement for "detaining" anyone).

    You can't detain someone that doesn't want to be detained without getting physical. I'm not going to follow any commands from anyone not already mentioned above, especially in a parking lot or other structure which means I'll be walking away to my vehicle to continue on about my day while calling the local LEO's.

    The only way to detain me at that point is physicality which is going to end VERY bad. I should never let anyone get that close before figuring it out, but I can't always count on perfect SA, because I'm far from perfect.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array dsee11789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    I hate to sidetrack this thread but this is sorta related... Would sure suck to get shot or have your arms ripped out of the sockets and get beat to death with them by the person you're trying to "detain" too...

    I'm curious, are you LEO or Private/contracted Security? If not LEO what involves detaining? How is detainment determined justifiable? Are you uniformed security or plain clothes?

    Someone attempts to detain me and they're not uniformed/marked LEO from an local, state, or fed agency I recognize and haven't made it abundantly clear who they are, S is going to HTF if/when things get physical(which is basically a requirement for "detaining" anyone).

    You can't detain someone that doesn't want to be detained without getting physical. I'm not going to follow any commands from anyone not already mentioned above, especially in a parking lot or other structure which means I'll be walking away to my vehicle to continue on about my day while calling the local LEO's.

    The only way to detain me at that point is physicality which is going to end VERY bad. I should never let anyone get that close before figuring it out, but I can't always count on perfect SA, because I'm far from perfect.
    Don't steal and you won't get detained.
    Exodus 22:2 "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed"

  10. #10
    Senior Member Array xsigma40cal's Avatar
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    My personal opinion on this, I dont blame the guy for drawing thinking that the girl was in imminent danger. A similar situation happened to me when I was a 13 yr old hellion. I was skateboarding in the neighorhood tennis court and this guy shows up yelling at me what a reason unknown to me at the time. He grabs me by the arm and starts to drag me away to his house. I do everything from trying to hit him with my board, to kicking him in the nutz and screaming my head off. There must have 5+ witness's to this and they did NOTHING!!! Well, turns out the guy was the neibhorhood association president and quite upset about my antics.
    He drags to his front lawn and tells his wife to call the cops and throws me to the ground, dislocating my shoulder. Cops show up and find out what has happened and they throw him in cuffs for assaulting a minor. I learned later that Hennepin county DA wanted him for attempted kidnapping, but...this was 1995 and the judges had bigger fish to fry (113 murders that year) and dropped the case finding "no wrong doing". A week later, the guy has the nerve to show up at my door and demand an apology.
    My brother (19) at the time was a chiseled 6' soccer player and fully aware of what happened, took me out side, put his hand on my shoulder and said to the guy, "If I ever see you on my property or anywhere near my little brother, I will be the last thing you ever see." (big brother is awesome.) That was the last time we ever heard from him.
    Bottomline is that it could have gone south real quick for me had it been the real thing. So my lesson to all of you who doubt this action of stepping in when you think a kid's being abducted, if it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck, consider it a duck until you know for a fact. On top of all of that, children are most often abducted by a parent, and every hour wasted trying to determine if its the real thing expands the search radius 75-100 miles cuts the chances of finding the kid alive by 30%. I dont intend for all of you to become agents of the nanny-state, but think about this next time the flag goes up and take some action to get to the bottom of it, or stop it.

  11. #11
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    I don't have enough information to get involved most of the time
    The most famous excuse for doing nothing at all.

    If a cop used that excuse before they acted, they would never act at all. The information that they get is often sparse, incomplete or wrong.

    Sometimes you just have to man up and do what you think must be done.

    One of my biggest pet peeves in life is taking a report from people that just stand around with their hands in their pockets and feel like they have done all they could do by calling 911 and waiting for the cops when just a little bit of action on their part would have been a major help.

    The whole world is turning into a bunch of pansies that are afraid to act for fear of being sued or doing something wrong and they think that picking up a cell phone and calling the police that are 20 minutes away is the brave thing to do.

    I am reminded of an incident that happened here several years ago.

    A man came home drunk and pulled his wife out onto the lawn to beat her so that her neighbors could see it. This was in a small trailer court with about a dozen trailers in a circle and everyone knew everyone. This guy is yelling and screaming like a lunatic beating his wife into a pulp. Everyone runs out and watches and no one does anything. This guy is ranting and raving like the lunatic that he was and his wife was bleeding severely and drifting in an out of consciousness begging for help from her neighbors.

    Not one was doing a thing to lift a hand. They didn't know all the details,some of them feared being sued, some didn't want to incur his wrath and some didn't want to get dirty.

    Finally a woman that everyone calls "Granny" runs outside and beats him over the head with the side of a metal folding chair that knocks Mr. Lunatic smooth out where he was laying in the yard when the Deputies got there. Not knowing what happened, and seeing an unconscious man in the yard, they took witness statements from all. Both were transported to the ER.

    This 80 something year old lady that may have weighed 110 pounds if she fell in a creek DID something and probably saved the life of her neighbor that day.
    She didn't know the situation. She didn't care about being sued. She didn't care about getting blood on her dress as she layed there cradling the head of her bleeding neighbor in her lap until the ambulance got there. She just acted because she knew it was the right thing to do.

    Who do you think got more respect from the Police?
    The college students that watched? The big burly auto mechanic that just got home and wanted to relax? The neighbors standing around gawking like fools watching someone get almost beat to death?

    Or the little old granny that didn't look like she was big enough to pick up a folding chair, never mind use one as a weapon?
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  12. #12
    Senior Member Array usmc3169's Avatar
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    + 1,000,000 to what HotGuns said. That is all I am gonna write about that right now because I would probably say something that the moderators wouldn't like.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  13. #13
    Member Array Intrepid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    I hate to sidetrack this thread but this is sorta related... Would sure suck to get shot or have your arms ripped out of the sockets and get beat to death with them by the person you're trying to "detain" too...

    I'm curious, are you LEO or Private/contracted Security? If not LEO what involves detaining? How is detainment determined justifiable? Are you uniformed security or plain clothes?

    Someone attempts to detain me and they're not uniformed/marked LEO from an local, state, or fed agency I recognize and haven't made it abundantly clear who they are, S is going to HTF if/when things get physical(which is basically a requirement for "detaining" anyone).

    You can't detain someone that doesn't want to be detained without getting physical. I'm not going to follow any commands from anyone not already mentioned above, especially in a parking lot or other structure which means I'll be walking away to my vehicle to continue on about my day while calling the local LEO's.

    The only way to detain me at that point is physicality which is going to end VERY bad. I should never let anyone get that close before figuring it out, but I can't always count on perfect SA, because I'm far from perfect.
    Don't steal, and there won't be a reason to detain you. If they approach you, don't fight, people have been charged with assault for fighting security. I've even seen people who are stealing charged with robbery for fighting security too.

    They have to see you actually conceal merchandise, they don't just detain anyone.

  14. #14
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Hotguns The most famous excuse for doing nothing at all.
    But the author didn't do nothing at all he called the police.

  15. #15
    Member Array 2ndAmend's Avatar
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    IMO, as a man and father and husband I couldn’t stand by and watch a potentially fatal situation just go on. Yes I would tell some one to call the cops and yes I would get involved (has nothing to do with having a CCW or being a Superhero). If I am able to stop something from happening then I am going to try, that’s just part of being a human. Yes I could stand by and watch, call the cops and be a good witness, but LEO are minutes away and it only takes seconds to kill someone.

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