MCS Combat Pen basics featuring Alpha Innovations Stylus - Page 2

MCS Combat Pen basics featuring Alpha Innovations Stylus

This is a discussion on MCS Combat Pen basics featuring Alpha Innovations Stylus within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am not asking you to list your resume. I am sure there are a great many people who believe they are well trained. I ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    I am not asking you to list your resume. I am sure there are a great many people who believe they are well trained. I just want to know a bit of your background and why you think the way you do. That's all.- George


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    In the movie directed by Diane Keaton titled, "Heaven," people are asked what they think Heaven is. One of the interviewees is some Indian guru, and he says, "Heaven is a place exactly like Earth. The purpose of living on Earth is to learn how to live in Heaven. When you know how to live on Earth, you'll know how to live in Heaven, and then you'll be in Heaven."

    Which is a long way of saying that in order to be able to use a kuboton effectively, you need to have facility with the kinds of skills used in aikido, jiu jitsu, or chi na. And when you have those skills - usually as a result of a number of years of constant training - then you'll know how to use a kuboton. And then you won't need a kuboton because you'll have adequate skill to handle yourself without one.

    Now, if you don't have that level of H2H combat ability under your belt, a kuboton is still a weapon, but it's going to be effective mainly in three ways: as a jabbing, striking tool; as a thrusting, stabbing tool; or as a Kelly come-along type of fist strengthener (like a bolt or roll of quarters). In such cases, a simple bolt would be better.

    So I have to give a thumbs-down to tactical pens because there are devices like those I named above that have all the characteristics of kubtons and are as easily carried and are as readily accessible, but that also have additional properties that allow escalation of force if needed.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bkrazy View Post
    I was thinking of getting my daughter on of these "tactical" pens so she could carry it where she wouldnt be allowed to carry OC (school ect). Two questions. At what age would it be appropriate? (my daughter will be 13 next month) And aside from high speed you tube videos where can one get training on such things?
    I've been training my now 13 year old granddaughter Martial Blade and Counter Blade Concepts since she was 9 years old. She is an extremely focused, mature, straight "A" student, musician and athlete (yes, grandpa loves to brag). Of course during that instruction she has been taught that given her age she is not allowed to carry a knife and regardless of age she can't carry in school.

    One thing I have stressed is that a lot of the edged weapons tactics (or more accurately, pointy object tactics) can be applied using other tools including a pen, especially with respect to applying the point to hard targets (bone) using the same stabbing mechanics utilized with a knife in standard or reverse grip.

    As far as the term "tactical pen" is concerned, while any of these techniques can be done with most pens, purpose designed pins with a more robust construction are better able to handle the stresses applied when using a pen in this manner, hence the term "tactical pen".

    As long as your daughter is mature enough to understand the responsibilities involved in using a pen as a self-defense tool, and the serious damage that can be done with it, I'd say provide her with the tool and the training.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    In the movie directed by Diane Keaton titled, "Heaven," people are asked what they think Heaven is. One of the interviewees is some Indian guru, and he says, "Heaven is a place exactly like Earth. The purpose of living on Earth is to learn how to live in Heaven. When you know how to live on Earth, you'll know how to live in Heaven, and then you'll be in Heaven."

    Which is a long way of saying that in order to be able to use a kuboton effectively, you need to have facility with the kinds of skills used in aikido, jiu jitsu, or chi na. And when you have those skills - usually as a result of a number of years of constant training - then you'll know how to use a kuboton. And then you won't need a kuboton because you'll have adequate skill to handle yourself without one.

    Now, if you don't have that level of H2H combat ability under your belt, a kuboton is still a weapon, but it's going to be effective mainly in three ways: as a jabbing, striking tool; as a thrusting, stabbing tool; or as a Kelly come-along type of fist strengthener (like a bolt or roll of quarters). In such cases, a simple bolt would be better.

    So I have to give a thumbs-down to tactical pens because there are devices like those I named above that have all the characteristics of kubtons and are as easily carried and are as readily accessible, but that also have additional properties that allow escalation of force if needed.
    But you can't write with a bolt, a roll of quarters, or a kuboton...

    I think that Tactical Pens (or any steel-bodied pen like my stainless Parker Jotter or even a Zebra 301) fill a niche in that they are much more inconspicuous than any of the above options. If you have a roll of quarters then it's not going to be in as handy a spot as the pocket of your shirt on a hot summer day. A Kuboton makes them wonder why you have a chopped-down large-size Tootsie Roll in your pocket, and a bolt has basically the same limitations for carry as the roll of quarters. As an aside, in what way exactly do these options add a hidden "escalation of force" that a tactical pen (or any steel-bodied pen) doesn't have?

    As for effectiveness, I have to disagree 100%. Any strike with a smaller, harder area will be more penetrative than a strike with a wider, softer area. I'm pretty sure that I could give someone a 4-8 hour crash course in a hammerfist-based tactical pen methodology (thumb on top of the pen and start flailing away) that would be quite effective in assisting them in surviving most street encounters. Thumb on top, snapping jabs to the face and neck while drilling some footwork at range and swapping to a more ice pick-style in close quarters cyclic right-left hands with knees and what my Kempo system called "Push Kicks". Simple, easy to learn, and probably pretty darn effective in all honesty.

    One thing to keep in mind is that if you're facing a 250-lbs all-muscle PCP-addled three-strikes-in-process hyper-violent psycho then there is a fair to middlin' chance that even a handgun won't make much difference. Using this obviously extreme far end of the spectrum example as the one and only litmus test for any given methodology to work simply means that anything short of a Ma-Deuce and a range of less than 100 meters is complete garbage.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    As an aside, in what way exactly do these options add a hidden "escalation of force" that a tactical pen (or any steel-bodied pen) doesn't have?
    If you look above to my previous comment (#11), you'll see 3 items named that can function as kubotons and also allow force escalation (CS spray, spike, and blade). All of them allow strong hammer-fist blows appropriate for a kenpo system or similar.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    One thing to keep in mind is that if you're facing a 250-lbs all-muscle PCP-addled three-strikes-in-process hyper-violent psycho then there is a fair to middlin' chance that even a handgun won't make much difference.
    +1

    Short of taking an eye out a "tactical pen" can inflict some serious pain but is not likely to do any structural damage that is going to go very far in stopping an attack. That pain may induce some attackers to back off but I see the pen as a weapon helping to open up opportunities to use other weapons hands, elbows, knees, kicks, etc. in concert with the pen to finish the job of ending the attack and escaping.

    The pain compliance techniques George demonstrated in the video have there place but in most cases the pen is going to be used to focus blunt force on a small area to inflict a lot of pain in order to open up opportunities to continue to a counter attack, damage the attacker and escape.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    +1

    Short of taking an eye out a "tactical pen" can inflict some serious pain but is not likely to do any structural damage that is going to go very far in stopping an attack. That pain may induce some attackers to back off but I see the pen as a weapon helping to open up opportunities to use other weapons hands, elbows, knees, kicks, etc. in concert with the pen to finish the job of ending the attack and escaping.

    The pain compliance techniques George demonstrated in the video have there place but in most cases the pen is going to be used to focus blunt force on a small area to inflict a lot of pain in order to open up opportunities to continue to a counter attack, damage the attacker and escape.
    Exactly my point. Use the pen to cause pain to create an opening for a second (or third, fourth, fifth...) attack that disrupts their base, shove them over, and do a runner. You only need to create an avenue of escape, not try to club or stab your assailant to death with your trusty writing implement.

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array GunGeezer's Avatar
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    As an aged, arthritic, over-weight, pill-taker, I am not about to let some BG get close enough to me to necessitate such a weapon. A quick warning and if the threat doesn't stop....well you know the drill, dial 911 then your lawyer. Oh, don't forget to reload!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    I am not asking you to list your resume. I am sure there are a great many people who believe they are well trained. I just want to know a bit of your background and why you think the way you do. That's all.- George
    I thought I just gave you a pretty explanation behind the reasoning for my thoughts on this. I'll try again to make it as simple and clear as possible.

    1. Violence used in any manner is simply a tool available to us all.
    2. If your going to use the tool, you better make sure you have the proper intent, because once its ON, it's ON!
    3. Choose your target and wreck it! Specifically, ones which yield an injury that will shut the person down or off ASAP.

    We can teach these principles to ANYONE in a very short amount of time. The more time you spend working on them properly, the better you'll be at it.
    The question is not which tool will work, but whether the CPU in your head is programmed to use it correctly, or suffer the consequences.
    Violence is rarely the answer, but when it is the answer, it's the ONLY answer...

    Plan for the unthinkable like it's the inevitable.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViperPowered View Post
    I thought I just gave you a pretty explanation behind the reasoning for my thoughts on this. I'll try again to make it as simple and clear as possible.

    1. Violence used in any manner is simply a tool available to us all.
    2. If your going to use the tool, you better make sure you have the proper intent, because once its ON, it's ON!
    3. Choose your target and wreck it! Specifically, ones which yield an injury that will shut the person down or off ASAP.

    We can teach these principles to ANYONE in a very short amount of time. The more time you spend working on them properly, the better you'll be at it.
    The question is not which tool will work, but whether the CPU in your head is programmed to use it correctly, or suffer the consequences.
    I'm guessing that it's largely a conflict of mindset here. George tends to focus on the "do enough to render an escape and no more" and you seem to be of the "tear their head off right off the bat (perhaps literally)". Both are certainly valid and have their place, but with the legal and ethical concerns, not to mention that every self-defense situation doesn't require such an extreme reaction as maximum punishment with maximum ruthlessness, I will side with mercop on this one.
    My first system was FIKKS (Federation of Independent Kempo Karate Schools) and it was pretty much directly ported over from the original old skool Kajukembo straight out of the Palama Settlement north of Honolulu. Guy grabs you in a bar, you poke his eyeballs straight out his head, break his grabbing elbow, and stomp on his throat as hard as you can once you finish the takedown. Real no-nonsense, bite and gouge, curb-stomping kind of stuff. This was trained, this was reinforced, this was entirely expected.
    Sparring and drills training was all but full-contact once you were in for a while with nothing but a cup and a mouthpiece. They used to go to tournaments and select a real rock-em', sock-em' robot as the "sacrificial lamb". This guy would enter the field while trying to maneuver himself to be against the best fighters from other schools. He would then use just enough illegal techniques and excessive contact to barely stay in competition in an effort to remove these individuals from the ranks of competitors later on in the tournament via injuries.
    I'm 6' 2" and 235 lbs. There aren't a whole lot of situations one-on-one where there will be an obvious disparity of force unlike if I was assaulting the typical 120 lbs woman. I'm not really in a position where my initial reaction to a threat can be poke their eyes out, break their arm, and stomp on their throat once the takedown is complete anymore. Furthermore, I don't want it to be. It was different when I was a picked-on gaming geek constantly harassed by various bullies. I thought that poking eyes, breaking limbs, and stomping throats was pretty cool. Legal issues where far from my mind back then and they are firmly in the forefront now. I have a loving wife, and perfect 20-month-old son who lights up my entire universe when he laughs, and my entire self-defense and use of force continuum revolves around the balancing act of brute effectiveness vs. never seeing them again because I flipped out and killed or maimed some guy when I really didn't have to according to the law.

    YMMW, of course...
    Last edited by psychophipps; June 22nd, 2010 at 10:42 PM.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Long before the days of systems and marketing man picked up sticks and stabbed and hit with them. The human arm is only capable of three movements, pushing, pulling, and swinging. Any attack and any defense will be a combination of those.

    I also do not believe in pain compliance. Training to use pain compliance only serves to increase task fixation instead of moving through your target. What you see in the video is a combination blood and airway choke. Not a squeeze but rather and fast snap/crush that in real life would be coupled with me smashing his head into the wall if need be. Depending on the implement the tool could also be turned to rip through the skin. Really the attackers decision, not mine.

    This without the pen is actually a very effective strike which disrupts the baroreceptors located on each side of your neck. For lack of a better explanation they are the body's thermostat. When they are struck the brain receives a signal that the blood pressure is skyrocketing and in response drops the blood pressure. The effects can range from a buckling of the knees to a full blown TKO.

    This simple moves can disrupt the three things needed to fight, sight, base, and air. Again I say disrupt, that is all you need in most situation to get away or test the dedication of your attacker.

    IMHO pain compliance should be left up to police/security, not he citizenry. They are under no legal obligation to hang onto someone or make any sort of apprehension. As far as pain compliance goes for police/security, the problem is that PC techniques require intentional targeting and the only way for the officer to know if they work is for the suspect to change his behavior or say "ouch". if they are applied without clear verbal commands chances are the suspect will continue to fail to comply. And what do officers do when a PP is not working what do they do, they push harder instead of transitioning to something else....task fixation. The longer you manipulate a point the more dead it becomes to pain.

    The hierarchy of controlling a person is as follows-

    Psychological
    Mechanical

    - George

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Long before the days of systems and marketing man picked up sticks and stabbed and hit with them. The human arm is only capable of three movements, pushing, pulling, and swinging. Any attack and any defense will be a combination of those.

    I also do not believe in pain compliance. Training to use pain compliance only serves to increase task fixation instead of moving through your target. What you see in the video is a combination blood and airway choke. Not a squeeze but rather and fast snap/crush that in real life would be coupled with me smashing his head into the wall if need be. Depending on the implement the tool could also be turned to rip through the skin. Really the attackers decision, not mine.

    This without the pen is actually a very effective strike which disrupts the baroreceptors located on each side of your neck. For lack of a better explanation they are the body's thermostat. When they are struck the brain receives a signal that the blood pressure is skyrocketing and in response drops the blood pressure. The effects can range from a buckling of the knees to a full blown TKO.

    This simple moves can disrupt the three things needed to fight, sight, base, and air. Again I say disrupt, that is all you need in most situation to get away or test the dedication of your attacker.

    IMHO pain compliance should be left up to police/security, not he citizenry. They are under no legal obligation to hang onto someone or make any sort of apprehension. As far as pain compliance goes for police/security, the problem is that PC techniques require intentional targeting and the only way for the officer to know if they work is for the suspect to change his behavior or say "ouch". if they are applied without clear verbal commands chances are the suspect will continue to fail to comply. And what do officers do when a PP is not working what do they do, they push harder instead of transitioning to something else....task fixation. The longer you manipulate a point the more dead it becomes to pain.

    The hierarchy of controlling a person is as follows-

    Psychological
    Mechanical

    - George
    Great stuff like always, George.

    In a crowded setting people could use that neck attack and push up and back while stepping between their attacker's legs and applying pressure towards themselves in the kidney or lower buttocks area with the other hand. Direct the pressure straight towards their spine so it might involve a bit of "Off the X" movement to get the angles right if the attacker is bladed too much. It drops their assailant flat on their can pretty much in place if it turns out that they don't have the room to safely be propelling their assailant into something large, hard, and handy.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    I also do not believe in pain compliance.
    Too bad. Chi na is a devastating tool to have in your arsenal. Unlike most martial arts, chi na isn't a system, it's just a technique. Grab, wind it up, take out all the slack, then bend in the way it doesn't want to bend. You add this to the system you already use.

    For example, grab the two fingers (pinky and ring finger) with one hand, and get a good hold on the other two (index and middle finger). Now rip them apart like snapping a chicken wing.

    You'll have the opponent tapping out real quick. All chi na works like that. No magic bullet, but have it in your arsenal because if you have a chance to apply it you have a game ender. Most applications work on arm, wrist and fingers, some on neck and head.

    Here's a good example. You add this to your karate, kenpo, kung fu - whatever you study. See how he draws up the slack, then twists. Resistance is pretty much impossible unless you train for chi na escapes.

    Don't write off pain compliance. It is not an effective tool if all you're talking about is a wrist lock or something like that. Joint manipulation and join destruction is no joke and if you have chi na applied on you I guarantee you'll be tapping out with tremendous enthusiasm and persuasiveness.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Shockwave- I hear you. Not trying to bust balls but do you handle people for a living...police/EMS/security.

    Too many people have something work for them one time, or more often for someone else and make it doctrine. When something works for me once I chalk it up to luck, not skill. Not accusing you of that, just a statement. And I am familiar with Chi na. There is not much I have not been exposed too. People turn up at classes with a background in stuff I have never heard of:)

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    I'm guessing that it's largely a conflict of mindset here. George tends to focus on the "do enough to render an escape and no more" and you seem to be of the "tear their head off right off the bat (perhaps literally)". Both are certainly valid and have their place, but with the legal and ethical concerns, not to mention that every self-defense situation doesn't require such an extreme reaction as maximum punishment with maximum ruthlessness, I will side with mercop on this one.
    My first system was FIKKS (Federation of Independent Kempo Karate Schools) and it was pretty much directly ported over from the original old skool Kajukembo straight out of the Palama Settlement north of Honolulu. Guy grabs you in a bar, you poke his eyeballs straight out his head, break his grabbing elbow, and stomp on his throat as hard as you can once you finish the takedown. Real no-nonsense, bite and gouge, curb-stomping kind of stuff. This was trained, this was reinforced, this was entirely expected.
    Sparring and drills training was all but full-contact once you were in for a while with nothing but a cup and a mouthpiece. They used to go to tournaments and select a real rock-em', sock-em' robot as the "sacrificial lamb". This guy would enter the field while trying to maneuver himself to be against the best fighters from other schools. He would then use just enough illegal techniques and excessive contact to barely stay in competition in an effort to remove these individuals from the ranks of competitors later on in the tournament via injuries.
    I'm 6' 2" and 235 lbs. There aren't a whole lot of situations one-on-one where there will be an obvious disparity of force unlike if I was assaulting the typical 120 lbs woman. I'm not really in a position where my initial reaction to a threat can be poke their eyes out, break their arm, and stomp on their throat once the takedown is complete anymore. Furthermore, I don't want it to be. It was different when I was a picked-on gaming geek constantly harassed by various bullies. I thought that poking eyes, breaking limbs, and stomping throats was pretty cool. Legal issues where far from my mind back then and they are firmly in the forefront now. I have a loving wife, and perfect 20-month-old son who lights up my entire universe when he laughs, and my entire self-defense and use of force continuum revolves around the balancing act of brute effectiveness vs. never seeing them again because I flipped out and killed or maimed some guy when I really didn't have to according to the law.

    YMMW, of course...
    Psycho-

    I'm not suggesting we indiscriminately tear heads off at the slightest challenge. Surely you understood that??? I'm only giving my opinion of how I think the pen should be used in an asocial (life threatening) scenario, and pointing out that the grabs, pokes and pulls with it can only lead to no good, for the reasons stated previously.

    Georges most recent follow up response (which unfortunately was not part of the demonstration video, and the reason for my original comments about the video) is a very good example of one possible response to such a situation. A proper strike to the side neck with the proper INTENT should result in the vasovagal response, essentially a knockout as George described... Otherwise known as the all important INJURY that I've been preaching about this whole time. Once you have the injury you want, your world has changed dramatically for the good! You now have the time you need to do as you see fit, be that get lost, inflict more damage or take on the his five friends that you had no idea was with him...

    Remember, injury doesn't have to mean death, but it certainly can if you want or need it to, by simply going from side neck for the KO to throat for something more lethal, as an example. Again, as I mentioned earlier, the other part of the equation, TARGETING.

    Then we can talk all day about the possible results of his head bouncing off the street from the our controlled response KO, right...

    Jeez, You guys getting this stuff yet or what???
    Violence is rarely the answer, but when it is the answer, it's the ONLY answer...

    Plan for the unthinkable like it's the inevitable.

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