MCS Combat Pen basics featuring Alpha Innovations Stylus

[ViperPowered]

You'll have the opponent tapping out real quick. All chi na works like that. No magic bullet, but have it in your arsenal because if you have a chance to apply it you have a game ender. Most applications work on arm, wrist and fingers, some on neck and head.

Don't write off pain compliance. It is not an effective tool if all you're talking about is a wrist lock or something like that. Joint manipulation and join destruction is no joke and if you have chi na applied on you I guarantee you'll be tapping out with tremendous enthusiasm and persuasiveness.

Shockwave-

Finger grabs and tapping out??? Please tell me your not serious about betting your life on something like this...

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[shockwave]

Shockwave- I hear you. Not trying to bust balls but do you handle people for a living...police/EMS/security.

My class currently has two LEO and one bouncer. They need to handle people for a living and, in their situations - not mine - they need to get problems under control without causing excessive damage.

In case I wasn't clear above, I'll repeat: chi na is not a fighting system, it's a technique that you add on to what you do study. If you are fortunate and get the opportunity to apply a good chi na maneuver, it will take the fight of a person quickly.

I mentioned it here because when most people use the term "pain compliance" they are usually talking about something more simple like an arm bar or a bent thumb or similar. As we know, a determined adversary can push through that. If you're knowledgeable about chi na, then I'm curious as to why you think it doesn't work.

Finger grabs and tapping out??? Please tell me your not serious

Don't take my word for anything. Try it yourself. If you're interested, take a look at this demonstration. Get together with a partner and see if you can apply one of those moves or have one done to you and see what you think about that. Or, find a chi na practitioner in your city and arrange to have it applied on you.

It's a good tool to have in the box.

[psychophipps]

I have used pain compliance in the past to good effect, actually. It can be a very handy tool in that it can be used to create space for another technique or to disrupt their base for a takedown of some sort. The main issue with finger locks and other pain compliance techniques is that they have to be a tool in the toolbox, not the only tool in your arsenal. Or as my sensei told a seminar student who demanded to know what you do if you can't get your lock to work, "Then you hit them."

The other issue with pain compliance techniques is that you really can't teach them in a crash course like at an academy, basic military training, or a weekend (let alone a week-long) training seminar. They require too much footwork, can include some fine manipulation, and what my sensei called "Transitional Flow". It's not too hard if you go to class twice a week for a while, but it's far too perishable otherwise.

I think that the main issue is that everyone has this idea that "pain compliance techniques" are the images from COPS on TV with an officer struggling with a thrashing suspect in a poorly-applied arm bar. This can be the scenario but it's far from the only one. A correctly applied pain compliance technique is simply looking for the initial drop in weight as the body responds to the pain and the brain attempts to determine the best direction to stay away from this pain. At this point the target is mobile so you can easily manipulate them into creating openings for strikes and base disruptions. The bad point comes when this immediate transition doesn't happen due to lack of training and the brain can respond by deadening the stimulus to the area being manipulated. Then you get your thrashing suspect obviously not being well contained versus a suspect that was arm-barred forward, reversed into a outwards wrist lock takedown as they reacted to the armbar, and tossed onto their side with your knees planted on their floaters and head with their arm bend in double due to a compression lock and no leverage to maneuver any longer.

[psychophipps]

Shockwave-

Finger grabs and tapping out??? Please tell me your not serious about betting your life on something like this...

Obviously not, but as discussed before, every self-defense situation isn't life and death. In fact, the vast majority are not so having a toolset that is only usable in a life-and-death situation means that you're not prepared for the majority of situations.

[shockwave]

as discussed before, every self-defense situation isn't life and death.

Right. One of my instructors had formerly been a karate student and, as he told it, he was out one evening drinking with a classmate, and his pal got drunk and disorderly. He needed to get him under control, and realized that pretty much all he could do was go for some kind of KO. That's how he got into internal style.

Sometimes a person is just out of control and needs to be managed in some way. It's good to have technique for that.

what my sensei called "Transitional Flow"

That's something we work on in my school constantly. Rather than set moves, you want to be able to react to any situation fluidly. Some schools are lacking in this regard, focusing on set applications. A strong approach here is to learn a concept (like in chi na, to "take up the slack first") and then practice it in free sparring or FoF contexts.

I agree with you very much that "creating space" for another move is often where joint manipulation is useful. Getting to this point takes lengthy practice, which gets back to my comment about the tactical pen. The advanced applications of the tool take more study than you can get in a seminar. Anybody serious about this sort of thing should plan on putting time into it.

[ViperPowered]

Or as my sensei told a seminar student who demanded to know what you do if you can't get your lock to work, "Then you hit them."

DING DING DING!!!! Ladies & Gentlemen, we have a WINNER!!! Well almost.... Your Sensei had it half right. You hit them FIRST to get the INJURY and then you can play games with your finger holds etc. if you like. Otherwise, this is called WRESTLING!

The bad point comes when this immediate transition doesn't happen due to lack of training and the brain can respond by deadening the stimulus to the area being manipulated. Then you get your thrashing suspect obviously not being well contained versus a suspect that was arm-barred forward, reversed into a outwards wrist lock takedown as they reacted to the armbar, and tossed onto their side with your knees planted on their floaters and head with their arm bend in double due to a compression lock and no leverage to maneuver any longer.

Prefect example: I'm sorry, but with no previous injury before attempting to do this crap, you're simply WRESTLING and hoping that each manipulation works! I understand that you want to believe that your training is worthwhile and going to be effective, but please be honest with yourself. The minute just ONE of those "arm-barred forward, reversed into a outwards wrist lock takedown as they reacted to the armbar, and tossed onto their side with your knees planted on their floaters and head with their arm bend in double due to a compression lock and no leverage to maneuver " misses, your now playing a Hulk Hogan, or TRYING to just do what your Sensei told you to do in the first place when it doesn't work... YOU HIT HIM!

And before all of you start with the lethal force whimpering, I'm not saying you have to throat punch them to death! How bout raking their eyes, striking the side neck, punching the solar plexus... I could go on and on for days about all the different TARGETS available that ACTUALLY WORK to get you the INJURY you WANT & NEED if you smash them the FIRST time! Once their injuried, you have all day to play whatever games you want, or just get the hell out of there.
Plain and Simple, what a concept...

[psychophipps]

So in order to even initiate an attempt to control the guy at the bar pushing me, I need to commit assault and battery first?

The problem with this methodology is that you're going from a semi-assaultive "He pushed me" straight to a definitely assaultive "I poked him in the nose/solar plexus/neck/etc". Secondly, smacking people, limbs, etc actually makes grabbing them harder because now they're really ticked off because you just poked them somewhere. Which leads to flailing of various sorts, which leads to you having a much rougher time in grabbing these flailing limbs. This, naturally, leads to you having to assault and batter them more. So poking them right away is a non-starter unless you want to be crawling on top of the guy, a la BJJ (which I generally don't).

It is far superior in a pain compliance context to initiate your initial attempt cold due to the facts above. You naturally can't get a finger or wrist lock on someone with a closed fist rapidly approaching you face (well, you can, but it's a bit complicated in the context of this conversation) so doing so from the initial push in this example is your best bet before he realizes he's got a real problem here.

[ViperPowered]

So in order to even initiate an attempt to control the guy at the bar pushing me, I need to commit assault and battery first?

The problem with this methodology is that you're going from a semi-assaultive "He pushed me" straight to a definitely assaultive "I poked him in the nose/solar plexus/neck/etc". Secondly, smacking people, limbs, etc actually makes grabbing them harder because now they're really ticked off because you just poked them somewhere. Which leads to flailing of various sorts, which leads to you having a much rougher time in grabbing these flailing limbs. This, naturally, leads to you having to assault and batter them more. So poking them right away is a non-starter unless you want to be crawling on top of the guy, a la BJJ (which I generally don't).

It is far superior in a pain compliance context to initiate your initial attempt cold due to the facts above. You naturally can't get a finger or wrist lock on someone with a closed fist rapidly approaching you face (well, you can, but it's a bit complicated in the context of this conversation) so doing so from the initial push in this example is your best bet before he realizes he's got a real problem here.

Wow, how you ever got the impression that I recommend "Poking or Smacking" as a response to another person physically attempting to assault you, is just beyond my comprehension!!!

So at this point I'm going to surrender, scream uncle or whatever it is you where hoping to hear.... You obviously don't get what I'm trying to share with you. I guess I shouldn't be that surprised, most people are sheep and think that when the time comes to deal with "real Violence" (not bullsh*t belly bumping and b*tch slapping in a bar) that using silly tactics which they learned in martial arts class or read about in a magazine are going to be effective...

Regardless, I wish you good luck, and hope that somebody else who reads this thread gets something useful out of it.

[Old School]

Amazon.com:How to Survive the Most Critical 5 Seconds of Your Life (9781615393107):Tim Larkin, Chris Ranck-Buhr:Books

Well worth the time to read. My .02.

[ViperPowered]

Amazon.com:How to Survive the Most Critical 5 Seconds of Your Life (9781615393107):Tim Larkin, Chris Ranck-Buhr:Books

Well worth the time to read. My .02.

I received numerous PM's asking me for follow up information on use of force and targeting, regarding my comments on this thread. For whatever reason that those of you choose to keep your comments private, the choice is yours and I respect you for it... Here is the answer to your questions.

Well done Old School!!!

How to Survive the Most Critical 5 Seconds of Your Life, is in my opinion truly the Bible of Hand to Hand Combat. It provides you a REAL understanding of what I believe is the proper use of VIOLENCE, INTENT & TARGETING.

Take a look at the overwhelming reviews on it. In fact, many of the them have been done by people who've attended the TFT seminars. If your really interested in the subject, then I would recommend you start by purchasing the book.

[mercop]

I have not ready the book. Does it cover the need for a measured response, controlling exposure, and criminal and civil litigation?- George

[ViperPowered]

I have not ready the book. Does it cover the need for a measured response, controlling exposure, and criminal and civil litigation?- George

Negative George... This is NOT a legal manual about the use of force.

We're all semi intelligent people here. It's up to you to determine your targets and level of force, given your individual circumstances at the time. No different than the decisions you must make when carrying a gun. The ONLY difference is the TOOL you're choosing to use.

It's main components are:

How to use Violence as a Survival Tool.
Injury-Penetration-Rotation
Physical Dynamics
Weapons & Other Tools of Violence

They are all broken down in a very comprehensive but easily understanding format. TFT also offers several DVD sets and personal instruction as well. All are all excellent products in my opinion.

[2edgesword]

We're all semi intelligent people here. It's up to you to determine your targets and level of force, given your individual circumstances at the time.

I'm not that smart so I have to limit my choices of force level to "on" and "off" :).

[Hopyard]

I'm not that smart so I have to limit my choices of force level to "on" and "off" :).

Sounds like a good reason to take one of George's courses.

[2edgesword]

Sounds like a good reason to take one of George's courses.

"Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig."

I'm pretty sure George doesn't have that much time to waste :).

(a little self-deprecating humor)