MCS Combat Pen basics featuring Alpha Innovations Stylus - Page 4

MCS Combat Pen basics featuring Alpha Innovations Stylus

This is a discussion on MCS Combat Pen basics featuring Alpha Innovations Stylus within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ViperPowered Negative George... This is NOT a legal manual about the use of force. We're all semi intelligent people here. It's up ...

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 63

Thread: MCS Combat Pen basics featuring Alpha Innovations Stylus

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,067
    Quote Originally Posted by ViperPowered View Post
    Negative George... This is NOT a legal manual about the use of force.

    We're all semi intelligent people here. It's up to you to determine your targets and level of force, given your individual circumstances at the time. No different than the decisions you must make when carrying a gun. The ONLY difference is the TOOL you're choosing to use.

    It's main components are:

    How to use Violence as a Survival Tool.
    Injury-Penetration-Rotation
    Physical Dynamics
    Weapons & Other Tools of Violence


    They are all broken down in a very comprehensive but easily understanding format. TFT also offers several DVD sets and personal instruction as well. All are all excellent products in my opinion.
    Ah the rub- here are the people teaching

    Police- used to acting under the color of law and in numbers
    Military- acting on the battlefield again in numbers
    Civilians-martial arts or bouncer types- people with lots of training and can usually teach you to hurt people.

    The problem is that you have got to have a measured response. This is a thinking mans game. Is the person teaching you about the judicious use of deadly force and civil liability.

    Hurting people is easy, especially if you swing first. Problem is that that the person you are fighting with probably has more to loose than you do.

    Then there seems to be this permeating lone survivor fast roping off the Space Shuttle whacking tangos mindset. My life is filled with people I care about. I am entrusted to protect my wife and children. That means being skilled in awareness, avoidance, and aggression.

    Whether it is a motor vehicle accident or and aggressive pan handler, they are just bumps in the road impeding me during my day. I deal with things and they come so I can live a new day.

    All crush and kill is for people that have little experience hurting people and having nothing to loose. That is not my case, and as I would opine not the case of may readers here. YMMV- George


  2. #47
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,884
    Mercop wrote: "The problem is that you have got to have a measured response. This is a thinking mans game. Is the person teaching you about the judicious use of deadly force and civil liability"

    This really says it all. I've been taught MA moves in which a knife disarm is followed by instantly plunging that into a vital area. Problem of course, once you have possession and the other guy is disarmed, the legal situation has changed. The disparity has changed. Your risk has changed.

    A wiser act might be to throw that recovered knife as far as you can while disengaging and running. You can't tell till the specific situation arises, but neither can you by rote, and by reflex, automatically plunge the knife.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,067
    I think what many fail to consider how good it feels to kick the a$$ of someone who needs it, like someone bothering a defenseless person and you walk up. You are all pumped up and feeling justified, you did not get caught daydreaming, you are on your A game. All of a sudden the "bad guy" gives up. Like a cat trying to get away from a dog. The prey drive kicks in. Will you be able to stop yourself from "teaching them a lesson"? That is why I prefer lots of open hand combatives and impact weapons over edged weapons and firearms. Many things short of an assassination attempt can be dealt with with the open hand and impact weapons. If you have a hard time "turning it off" a extra strike is more dependable than an extra stab/cut or shot. Make no mistake, you would be much easier to justify shooting someone than jamming a pen in their eye socket, however kewl it may be in the movies or in the forums. And yes, there is a time for that, and with realistic training will come the knowledge of when it is time.

    I have seen plenty of police officers made to look and feel stupid when they were too fast to draw their weapon when it was not warranted, only to hear the suspect say "what are you gonna do shoot me". Hard to save face when you have to re holster and go hands on.

    Another thing is people "knowing" what they are going to do in a certain situation. I was involved in a shooting wtih 4 other officers. Three of the five shot. Two "veterans" completely lost it.

    While I am at it I will also say that for some reason people fail to remember that life will go on. Being involved in a situation where someone tries to kill you or you have to injure/kill someone else will change your life, and NEVER for the good.

    Working being aware of threats to avoid them, not to engage them. But what do I know? Just my $.02

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    653
    Mercop makes some excellent points as have others. Let me throw this thought into the mix regarding compliance techniques.

    George is a big, strong guy (6 foot+, 210 lbs+) with extensive training. Most of the individuals he comes in contact with are going to be behind the power curve with respect to engaging him in an altercation since the average male is about 5' 9" and 175 lbs. In the vast majority of situations basic physics (in addition to his training) is in his favor and that gives him a wider platform with respect to the when, where and how of applying compliance control techniques.

    I'm 5' 6" and 150 lbs which means in the vast majority of cases I'm going to be behind the power curve in a confrontation. I can't think of any physically confrontation I've had where the other individual was my size or smaller. As an instructor the vast majority of my student are larger and some significantly larger then I'm am so I've had a fair amount of experience applying an assortment of techniques on individuals of various size and strength, developing and understanding of what techniques become low percentage techniques as the disparity of size, weight and strength increases even given superior training.

    When the time comes for me to pull the trigger (figuratively) in the vast majority of situations there isn't the luxury to go through various levels of force that can be progressively applied in order to deal with that confrontation, at least not to the extent that George enjoys given the physical advantage he enjoys. In most cases, from a simply physical/physics standpoint, I'm going to be behind the power curve. Training, speed, reflexes, the efficient application of technique, help make-up for the deficit.

    So when I say I have two speeds (off and on) I say that with a clear understanding of the concept of force continnum and the responsibilities involved in use of force to defend yourself in an attack. But I also say it with the realization that martial arts isn't magic that defies the laws of physics, and with an understanding of the limitations that exist in applying technique when there is a significant force disparity.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  5. #50
    Member Array ViperPowered's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    San Diego, Ca
    Posts
    22
    This subject could go on forever.... TFT addresses pretty much everything you could ever dream in regards to real self defense, including use of force. It's just not a big part of the mentioned book. Below is a link to an interview with a TFT Master Instructor who I've trained under for the last 3 years. He's a California attorney and an expert on this subject in my opinion.

    Check it out if your really wanting to understand legal use of force issues.

    http://www.targetfocustraining.com/w.../04/Legal1.mp3
    Violence is rarely the answer, but when it is the answer, it's the ONLY answer...

    Plan for the unthinkable like it's the inevitable.

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    653
    Quote Originally Posted by ViperPowered View Post
    This subject could go on forever....
    The reasons this subject could go on forever are the way the laws are written, interpreted and the fact that so much of the population (the jury of your peers that will decide your fate if you're every brought up on charges related to use of force) is for the most part woefully ignorant about the law and the realities that go along with use of force.

    Castle Doctrine laws (mentioned in the interview) differ from state to state or are non-existent in some states. In one state if someone enters your house uninvited it is assumed that there mere presence is justification for using DPF. In other states acting under that assumption and using DPF could get you locked up for a very long time.

    Lawyers can dissect an event that took place in a matter of seconds and play it out in excruciating slow motion to warp the reality of what takes place mentally and physically during an altercation. The actions you took, that were justifiable in your mind at the moment, will be made to look like a gross over reaction in the days it takes to revisit every single aspect of the event during a trial. And in the PC society we live in, a society that is detached from the realities of a physical altercation, you can very well end up looking like the criminal in the minds of that jury of your peers.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  7. #52
    Member Array ViperPowered's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    San Diego, Ca
    Posts
    22
    I'm not sure I understand the relentless and continued discussion over use of force here. Undoubtedly I realize the importance of understanding it for all of us regarding this subject, but essentially what I believe needs to be recognized is, and you might have done so when reading MY comments IF you paid close attention to the SPECIFIC WORDS I've used regarding the effective use of VIOLENCE when necessary in an ASOCIAL situation, and what I believed to be the danger of using the techniques shown in MERCOP's video.

    There are Essential Differences between SOCIAL AGGRESSION & ASOCIAL VIOLENCE.

    Social Aggression is: AVOIDABLE - SURVIVABLE - CAN BE SOLVED USING SOCIAL SKILLS

    Asocial Violence is: LETHAL - UNAFFECTED BY SOCIAL SKILLS - REQUIRES DECISIVE ACTION


    Learning to use the tool of violence correctly and well doesn't change who you are. It doesn't make you “cold” or deaden your sociability, it doesn't make you uncaring or mean or into a hair-trigger assassin. It just means that if somebody comes after you, to hurt you, you know how to hurt them instead.

    If anything, I've found this training to make people more caring, more considerate and far less likely to get involved in stupid situations — because it highlights the fragility of life (his and yours) and shows how quickly and simply it can end. Any situation that’s not worth your life is not worth the risk. That attitude tends to make one more tolerant of other people’s social friction. I know it does for me.

    Violence is only about winners and losers, and, whether we realize it or not, we're training to be one or the other. And if we're not training to be the one hurting people, we're training to lose.

    As social and sane people we think of violence in social terms, but once you can understand the difference between social aggression vs. asocial violence you can make informed decisions on what your looking at. If you have to ask yourself if you should severely injure a person the answer is probably a resounding NO! But when true violence is needed it should be easily identified, you won't have time for internal debates and thoughts about legal issues if you do! It also cannot be handled using social tools, in fact attempting do so is what makes the average citizen such a brilliant victim!
    Think about it...
    Violence is rarely the answer, but when it is the answer, it's the ONLY answer...

    Plan for the unthinkable like it's the inevitable.

  8. #53
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    653
    Quote Originally Posted by ViperPowered View Post
    I'm not sure I understand the relentless and continued discussion over use of force here.
    It's a necessary discussion since this forum is about education. There are always new members who will read some of the things mentioned in this thread for the first time.

    People learn in different ways. One way of explain a concept or principle doesn't necessarily compute with all individuals. The continued discussion allows concepts and principles to be expressed in a multitude of ways in the hope that one of those ways will be effective in communicating the concept to various individuals read the thread.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    2,051
    It's a necessary discussion since this forum is about education. There are always new members who will read some of the things mentioned in this thread for the first time.
    Agreed. Y'know, the book Viper is talking about is not targeted at martial artists or the kind of people I think of as being "urban warriors." It's targeted at Casper Milquetoast who thinks that if he gets into a fistfight, there will be no hitting below the belt and that he'll be allowed to remove his eyeglasses first.

    The authors don't discuss much technique or practical application, but focus instead primarily on the killer mindset - the idea that if violence is warranted, then the only possible recourse is a massive, overwhelming banshee screaming eye-gouging gorefest of savage biting and ripping bloodlust.

    This might be a good eye-opener (or extractor) for our Casper, but not applicable to people with a training background or LEO or bouncers, etc., who need to gauge response to threat level. As we frequently observe here, if you have to draw your firearm, you have to be ready to fire, but you don't have to fire if the threat dissipates.

    In my town, there was a story about long lines at the Apple store last Thursday, and there was mention of line jumpers - attempted line jumpers - of whom it was written that the hundreds assembled gave them the 86, pronto.

    So. Imagine that you've been waiting in line for a few hours and a couple of bozos cut in line in front of you. Nice if you know how to take hold of an upper arm and wrist and gently, but forcefully, guide them back out into the street. Do it right and there's no force escalation, but a strong message gets delivered: "this could have been a lot harder."

    In some styles, the main energy you work with is the force of the attack itself. Weak, slow attack gets a weak, slow response. Strong, big-power attack gets a big response. You match the energies, blend them, and whatever the other guy throws at you is what he gets in return.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  10. #55
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,884
    "Nice if you know how to take hold of an upper arm and wrist and gently, but forcefully, guide them back out into the street."

    However self-satisfying that act might be, it could also be viewed as assault.

    Line jumping = rude. Hands on = potential legal troubles. If things escalate, the potential legal troubles escalate.

    As has been often said on this forum, you can't claim self-defense when you participated in escalating the conflict.

  11. #56
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    1,067
    First of all 210:) I was 210 at birth. Right now I am at 310 and feeling good. I am very careful not to let me size become a pair of rose colored glasses. My stuff is based on doing enough damage to get away. If it works for my 14 yr old daughter than it works. If anything I have a lack of people to play with.

    The reason we continue to talk about use of force is because survival is 99.9% mental. The other .1% is just doing it.- George

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    653
    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    First of all 210:) I was 210 at birth.
    Just being gracious George :).
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  13. #58
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Texas, in the RGV
    Posts
    747
    The use-of-force continuum that I was taught in Small Circle Jujitsu and I adhere to is: Defend, Counter, Control, Destroy. It easily legally defensible as you can articulate your attempt at a less-than-brutal application of force, my training has involved shifting from one to another rapidly and without any real reduction in effectiveness (Hey, I like getting my mitts on people. What can I say?), and I'm happy with it.
    Two things that led to me losing my "gnaw through their chest to do a terrier with their heart" mindset was the increased awareness of the legal ramifications of entering into physical combat of any type in our society (two guys punching each other up after hours at a bar is treated like Murder One anymore) and the simple fact that the better I got at hurting people, the less I found myself wanting to do it. Funny how things work out that way.

  14. #59
    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Sin comentarios
    Posts
    350
    The thing that occurs to me when watching the video is that the person who has the skill to use the pen for defensive purposes in the ways you demonstrate probably doesn't need the pen at all.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

  15. #60
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Texas, in the RGV
    Posts
    747
    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    The thing that occurs to me when watching the video is that the person who has the skill to use the pen for defensive purposes in the ways you demonstrate probably doesn't need the pen at all.
    Kind of like how Steven Segal probably really doesn't need a pistol if some random untrained idiot comes at him with a knife?

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. MCS Drug Store Combat Cane Basics
    By mercop in forum Defensive Knives & Other Weapons
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: June 29th, 2010, 05:31 AM
  2. Tactical Innovations Tac 65 .22 suppressor?
    By 1911luver in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: June 10th, 2010, 09:28 AM
  3. Anyone EDC a Steamlight stylus?
    By AtlantaSW40 in forum Related Gear & Equipment
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: April 10th, 2010, 11:49 AM
  4. Innovations in Carry
    By Mr_Dove in forum Defensive Carry Holsters & Carry Options
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: June 24th, 2006, 05:56 AM
  5. Alpha/Bravo
    By ron8903 in forum Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: October 28th, 2005, 12:15 PM

Search tags for this page

alpha 1 tactical pen
,

combat pen

,
combat pen technique
,
combat pen techniques
,
combat pens
,
defensive stylus
,
guardfather speed opening spike
,

kelly come along

,
kelly come along weapon
,
kelly come-along
,
kelly come-along tool
,
weapons like alpha innovations
Click on a term to search for related topics.