Pain Compliance...Yay or Nay?

This is a discussion on Pain Compliance...Yay or Nay? within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I think that the main reason another poster and I were butting heads is that we each have different ideas as to what "pain compliance ...

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Thread: Pain Compliance...Yay or Nay?

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    I think that the main reason another poster and I were butting heads is that we each have different ideas as to what "pain compliance technique" means. I pretty much limit my "pain compliance" repertoire to joint and/or limb manipulation that also can result in base disruption. I don't try to wiggle my fingers into the perfect Dim Mak spot to make a person pass out if I tap a spot in their foot afterwards.
    If it doesn't break their base, I'm pretty well not interested. The last thing I want to have happen is to be hanging into some bull moose of a guy trying to get some funky nerve point to work while he's trying to tear my head off and take a dump down my neck. Grab them when you can do so relatively safely, disrupt their base, take their power away, assess from a position of dominance. If there is a hiccup along the way, start bonking. Pretty simple.

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  3. #17
    New Member Array Pigpopper's Avatar
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    I have never been in a fight in my life and I have zero experience with what you are talking about but, watching cops this past weekend, they had two situations in a row where the persons "causing a disturbance" were wacked out of their head (supposedly on drugs) and had zero response to pain manipulation and tazers (sp?). They simply gang tackled them and kept calf roping them until they were incapable of not complying. I think it would be difficult to control someone like that by myself.

    Interesting topic. Thank you for relating your real world experiences.

  4. #18
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Ok, for some reason no matter how well I try to convey my sincerest intentions of contributing to a thread, I always seem to come across as 'argumentative, or a know-it-all'. (Which will explain my low post number.) I hate the written word.

    So I will wade into this discussion w/ the preface that I am truly interested in the op's question, and have the utmost respect for all our members and guests here at DC.

    Since this is Defensive Carry, I am making the assumption that we are collectively talking about the average non leo, ccw-type Joe Carry. That being the case, I will try to make my contribution or questions center around that criteria.

    As non-LEO, or private security, or mall cop, or ...well, you get the idea, my interpretation of pain compliance is to generate enough pain quickly enough to
    1) surprise my assailant
    a) by not rolling over
    b) by striking someone who thought they were in command of this situation
    c) causing pain
    2) give him pause that I may
    a) move away quickly to avoid further attack
    b) gain distance at which point I can decide to continue to gain more distance, or to possibly draw if I'm in fear of death or great bodily harm, without introducing a weapon in a close enough proximity to the assailant as to set up a gun grab by him.

    As a ccw, I really don't want to 'tie up' w/ someone. I'm not really so likely to use a wrist or elbow lock, so much as a throat strike, eye flick, hacky sac kick, etc. An instep stomp, or shin rake are other tools. These I also equate w/ debilitating my adversary. Again, I want time and distance, as they are my friends. The longer I stay in contact w/ my attacker, the greater the chances of this fight going in his favor. The reason being because I am counting on my skill, he just has to get lucky. The more time and distance I gain, the greater my skill can come into play. Because, IF I've gone 'hands on' as you guys call it, this is a deadly encounter because there is at least one gun involved-mine. I don't want him to get a lucky punch in, and then have my gun at his disposal. So, I want time and distance on my side. Pain compliance and debilitation for me also include weapon retention w/ and without a knife, (or pen or pencil, etc).

    So, after all that convoluted rambling, my answer to Yay or Nay, will be Yay. With the caveat being, I would rather utilize strike and move in favor of a lock and stay. But again, my training is designed that way. If you have the skills to tie up, then I reckon you'll go with what you know.

    Interesting question, thank you op and other contributors.

    dan

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    I think that the main reason another poster and I were butting heads is that we each have different ideas as to what "pain compliance technique" means.
    It's comments like this that keep me hanging around. Nice to see some martial artists here.

    Yes, there are obviously different ideas about what pain compliance means, and that should be clarified. Maybe a good way to think about it is to imagine a range of moves, holds or techniques that we could place on a scale of 1 to 5, where 1 means "pressure point." This could be, say, the spot behind the hinge of the jaw. There are a lot of nerves there and it's a vulnerable spot. If you press on it, it will hurt. But it doesn't do anything except hurt.

    Around number 3, maybe we're talking tearing fingers sideways, like ripping apart a chicken wing. This isn't just breaking fingers, but ripping them sideways and apart. Wouldn't kill anybody, but they might faint from shock. It would take the hand out of the game.

    Up around 5 we have the large tendons and muscles that run across the back and shoulders. A good joint lock and manipulation in this area can be extremely painful, but it also locks up the body in a physical way that can't be "fought through." Here's a few examples from chi na.

    What's that? "But... but pain compliance doesn't work because I've seen drug-crazed psychos blah blah blah..."

    That's not an argument; there is a time and place for everything. You might use a chi na application to get loose from a grappling hold, you might use it to control a drunken lout. A wild, drug-crazed maniac could require a combination of bullets and H2H techniques to bring down, and any pain compliance maneuvers would probably need to be around level 4 or 5 - takedowns.

    I've added a program of internal martial arts to complement my striking style, and added chi na and iron palm regimens to increase the range of my abilities. I think it's important to round out your skills and have the ability to match your level of force with the level of threat. I can't imagine any reason to not have pain compliance tools in your bag of tricks.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  6. #20
    Member Array carguy2244's Avatar
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    An attack by an unarmed assailant must be terminated by any means necessary. I've encountered several encounters like this in my previous life, and the shortest path between 2 points is a totally committed strike to the throat. I've been prepared to choke them to unconsciousness afterwards, but I've never seen anyone continue the fight with a crushed larynx. If someone has seen otherwise, you've seen tougher guys than I have. Additionally, as it's quick, you still have both hands available to engage others if needed, which is particularly important if someone else appears who is armed.
    I'm not at all a believer in pain compliance. I prefer my adversaries to be unconscious.

  7. #21
    Member Array mdmorgan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carguy2244 View Post
    An attack by an unarmed assailant must be terminated by any means necessary. I've encountered several encounters like this in my previous life, and the shortest path between 2 points is a totally committed strike to the throat. I've been prepared to choke them to unconsciousness afterwards, but I've never seen anyone continue the fight with a crushed larynx. If someone has seen otherwise, you've seen tougher guys than I have. Additionally, as it's quick, you still have both hands available to engage others if needed, which is particularly important if someone else appears who is armed.
    I'm not at all a believer in pain compliance. I prefer my adversaries to be unconscious.
    At least where I live, for someone in law enforcement or corrections, we are trained to NOT strike above the shoulders. A strike to the head or neck is deadly force, and will put you in a world of SH@* if you were not justified in using deadly force. I will agree that and hand to hand method must be executed with full effort or it will not work.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    While I'm sure PPCT is appropriate in certain circles....not sure how applicable it is to those not involved in LE or corrections. Outside of those circles, avoidance, delay (walking away), or descalation would be more appropriate. My reasoning is this: most are not trained in PPCT, we can be viewed as an aggressor, it gets us closer to someone we don't want to get close to when carrying a gun; defense of the gun itself may be an issue; and overall, we are not LEOs.

    Say you were to use PPCT (you have someone in a joint lock)--now what? You are by yourself, both hands are tied up with your compliance technique, you can't use your cell phone, you don't have back-up, and above all, you can't defend your firearm from 3rd party. IMO, this is NOT someplace you want to be.

    The only compliance I seek is to be left alone.
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  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    Since i don't want to go H2H unless I have to, the only techniques I am interested in are those used to break contact with the attacker and get some distance. I can think of some joint locks and such that would break the attackers grip on you or a weapon, but at that point I want to get away before the attacker recovers.

    I believer you need to know some H2H techniques in the event you are unable to carry a weapon or get taken by surprise and are unable to use a weapon. I know we are all supposed to exhibit situational awareness, but you can't be perfectly aware at all times.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    In that case, we're not talking PPCT per se...but strikes and blows to get away far enough to: 1-Call for help; 2-Create space to employ our firearm should the BG continue the attack.

    Again...the only compliance at this point is to be left alone...both me and my family.
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  11. #25
    JD
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    I'd not want to go with a pain compliance maneuver in a bar as to really do them right you need two hands which will fill your hands and I think you might end up focusing too much on the initial threat and not his possible cohorts.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    I'd not want to go with a pain compliance maneuver in a bar as to really do them right you need two hands which will fill your hands and I think you might end up focusing too much on the initial threat and not his possible cohorts.
    Exactly...(I would also add any environment where groups of people gather....not just bars)

    I'm not discounting the value of PPCT--I just think they are more appropriate for those who work up close and personal with BGs and are working to get them into custody...
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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  13. #27
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    ...IMHO PC has no place in a one on one fight whether it is the police or a citizen. When you have a few people trying to control someone then yes. Attacking points that do not also provide a mechanical advantage is not a good idea...
    Just a story in agreement:

    Before I went to Afghanistan in 2007, we received some fairly worthless Army training. One day's course was in controlling a detainee. The likelihood of an O-5 staff puke needing to man a checkpoint or control a detainee wasn't addressed by the Army.

    Anyways, I was the 'dummy', and a 5' woman who had done a tour in Iraq showed how she could control my movements with a wrist lock. When she rather smugly claimed it worked well, I replied it did...if she was backed up by 6 guys in body armor and M-16s. Or against a Lt Col who was mainly interested in getting past the training and getting something to eat. But if she had tried that as a way of control so she could get to and hurt my daughter - ie, if I was highly motivated - then yes, she could have broken my wrist at about the same time I would have smashed a nearby metal pipe into her face. Now I would have a broken left wrist, she would have a broken nose, and I'd still have the metal pipe in my right hand, along with the desire to kill her.

    She was offended that I wasn't taking the training seriously. I was offended that the Army was giving people such false confidence that they would try that stuff without noticing a metal pipe next to the guy they were supposed to control.

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array pirate's Avatar
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    I am 51 years old now, 5-10 195, muscular stocky build and even at my age, one man no matter how large is going to control me with some type of pain compliance techniques. When I was a younger man and more quick to anger and action I was in many bar/street fights and ended several quickly. This pain compliance techniques stuff maybe works in the movies but on a guy who's a real "bad ass", tough, quick and strong, its not even worth trying. The best thing to do is a quick fist to the nose and followup with a another desicive strike or kick to end the fight. Even big men often have the fight taken out of them when the first punch delivers a broken nose. He who gets in the first good shot usually wins the encounter. Its the guy you don't see behind you you need to worry about and trying to use some pain compliance technique on the guy in front of you will get your head caved in by his backup. Hit first, hit hard and then get out quickly.
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    Even when I was young, strong, lean and quite agile, I was never considered a good fighter. I would typically use an instrument to level the playing field or the person attacking me. These days, there is no way I would even consider a contact sport if I were encountered. Whatever I have at my disposal will be used to stop the attack.
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  16. #30
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    JD - I'd not want to go with a pain compliance maneuver in a bar as to really do them right you need two hands which will fill your hands and I think you might end up focusing too much on the initial threat and not his possible cohorts.
    This is actually a common misconception with bars and locks and I'm really not certain where it came from. The point of bars and locks is to use a readily-available appendage and it's limitations of movement to disrupt an assailant's base which opens them up to a series of either takedowns or strikes. Nobody with even a decent amount of training, or anything approaching correct training, will simply apply an armbar or wrist lock and stand there with a beatific grin and a saucy wink in any situation but the most benign of physical encounters. The correct application of an armbar in a serious physical encounter is to faceplant their assailant into the ground or a handy hard object or to bend them over and down for a knee to the face and/or a dropping strike to hyperextend or break their elbow. The bar to the following technique shouldn't take more than 1/2 to 3/4 of a second and that should also prepare you to continue to use offensive tools on your assailant should they prove necessary.

    After this is done, it should immediately lead into a scan of the area for other assailants and possible transition to put a choke point between yourself and any other threats.

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