Pain Compliance...Yay or Nay? - Page 3

Pain Compliance...Yay or Nay?

This is a discussion on Pain Compliance...Yay or Nay? within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by psychophipps This is actually a common misconception with bars and locks and I'm really not certain where it came from. The point ...

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  1. #31
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    This is actually a common misconception with bars and locks and I'm really not certain where it came from. The point of bars and locks is to use a readily-available appendage and it's limitations of movement to disrupt an assailant's base which opens them up to a series of either takedowns or strikes. Nobody with even a decent amount of training, or anything approaching correct training, will simply apply an armbar or wrist lock and stand there with a beatific grin and a saucy wink in any situation but the most benign of physical encounters. The correct application of an armbar in a serious physical encounter is to faceplant their assailant into the ground or a handy hard object or to bend them over and down for a knee to the face and/or a dropping strike to hyperextend or break their elbow. The bar to the following technique shouldn't take more than 1/2 to 3/4 of a second and that should also prepare you to continue to use offensive tools on your assailant should they prove necessary.

    After this is done, it should immediately lead into a scan of the area for other assailants and p
    ossible transition to put a choke point between yourself and any other threats.
    That doesn't mesh with this from your initial post:

    Take the initial stereotypical push or grab in a bar for instance. You could then meld into the push or grab and go for a pain compliance technique that disrupts the assailant's base in an attempt to let them know that their actions are not cool. You're trying to be nice and not let things get out of hand here before you take your leave of the situation.
    I agree with the first post I quoted, but if we're using pain compliance in order to subdue a person rather than beat the living tar out them, it's going to eat attention and resources.


  2. #32
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    While I have PPCT training and some martial arts, I would rather create distance . If they keep coming then the fight is on. Pain compliance for Le work makes sense as you are detaining someone. As a concealed carrier I just want to be left alone.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    Just a story in agreement:

    Before I went to Afghanistan in 2007, we received some fairly worthless Army training. One day's course was in controlling a detainee. The likelihood of an O-5 staff puke needing to man a checkpoint or control a detainee wasn't addressed by the Army.

    Anyways, I was the 'dummy', and a 5' woman who had done a tour in Iraq showed how she could control my movements with a wrist lock. When she rather smugly claimed it worked well, I replied it did...if she was backed up by 6 guys in body armor and M-16s. Or against a Lt Col who was mainly interested in getting past the training and getting something to eat. But if she had tried that as a way of control so she could get to and hurt my daughter - ie, if I was highly motivated - then yes, she could have broken my wrist at about the same time I would have smashed a nearby metal pipe into her face. Now I would have a broken left wrist, she would have a broken nose, and I'd still have the metal pipe in my right hand, along with the desire to kill her.

    She was offended that I wasn't taking the training seriously. I was offended that the Army was giving people such false confidence that they would try that stuff without noticing a metal pipe next to the guy they were supposed to control.
    LOL....Ft Riley MiTT training...at Fun Town....er, Funston?
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  4. #34
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    In an unavoidable situation I see pain as a by-product of damage. What I seek is damage sufficient to end the incident, not pain. Whether the ending is by choice by the aggressor based on pain from the damage or the inability to continue due to damage it self, is of no concern to me.

  5. #35
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    The correct application of an armbar in a serious physical encounter is to faceplant their assailant into the ground or a handy hard object or to bend them over and down for a knee to the face and/or a dropping strike to hyperextend or break their elbow.
    Glad you added this. There's a lot of confusion here regarding what a "pain compliance" technique is and how and when it could be used. Part of this is due to there being different kinds of techniques that do different things. If you grab a little finger and bend it back, most people would adjust themselves in some way so as to avoid getting a broken finger. Some people would allow the broken finger and just get more angry. There are fewer of the latter, but yes they are out there.

    I can think of some joint locks and such that would break the attackers grip on you or a weapon, but at that point I want to get away before the attacker recovers.
    Great point. Sometimes you can't hit somebody on the nose. Maybe because they are choking you from behind. Getting a hold of a finger might lead to a release. Maybe the fight has gone to the ground and you need to break a hold. In the wide range of possible things, it won't hurt to know how to apply a joint lock. There are also two kinds of locks - one is like what bsms describes above with the female trainer: a wrist lock that bends the wrist in a way it doesn't want to move, creating pain. Another type is where the wrist lock is part of a more severe hold where the arm is stretched across your chest and all the slack is taken out of the arm, which occurs a moment before the takedown. These are very different things.

    Not every physical encounter has to end with one person damaged badly in some way. In that sort of fight, one person is going to the hospital, the other is going to jail. A civil suit could follow. You do what you have to do, but if you can de-escalate and remove yourself from a bad situation, that's optimal. These kinds of moves can be useful in crowded venues, where a hard and violent exchange is not advisable. There's a lot of stuff involved here, and I strongly disagree with the "LEO-only" line of thinking. The more tools in your bag, the more options you have.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  6. #36
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    LOL....Ft Riley MiTT training...at Fun Town....er, Funston?
    Ft Sill. About 25% of the training was good. OK, maybe 10 or 15%. The rest was...well, I spent 25 years in the military. It is inefficient, while being the most efficient part of government I've seen.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    One thing to keep in mind that violent physical assault is often tool based and that those assaulting people don't always see the necessity of the tool on the outset of the encounter. Often a fight will start out as a fight and once the assailant realizes that things aren't going well, then they reach for their force multiplying tool like a knife or other weapon. If you focus entirely on stepping back to create room you are doing four things: 1) giving your assailant a chance to "catch their breath" and get a clearer picture of the situation, 2) allowing them free access to their tool(s) as well, 3) giving them a chance to press the attack through your defense or to bowl you over or into something, 4) potentially maneuvering into a corner as these tend to be the open spaces in rooms and other open spaces. None of these are good and can be mitigated with the concept that the best way to create space to access you tools is to go in and take ownership of the space that your assailant is currently using.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    That doesn't mesh with this from your initial post:

    I agree with the first post I quoted, but if we're using pain compliance in order to subdue a person rather than beat the living tar out them, it's going to eat attention and resources.
    Actually, it meshes just fine. The initial post was correctly describing the attempt at "being a nice guy" that sometimes requires further escalation while the later post above was discussing, in a poorly worded manner, the realities that "being a nice guy" is really setting up the "GROG SMASH!" but simply not taking the next step in the process unless it proves necessary. My real point, since I've been dancing around it this whole time apparently, is that I utilize pain compliance as a means to lead to potential base disruption for potential takedowns or striking and nothing more. Just hitting Liver 3 with a prod of testicle 5 and a wiggle of Heart 6 doesn't strike me as doing any good if it doesn't lead directly to: 1) me being able to effect a position of dominance or 2) being able to more effectively strike my assailant.

    Subdual can indeed lead to attention issues if done incorrectly. I'm not looking to put myself in a position where I need to climb on someone's back and stay there despite their four rather mean looking friends surrounding me. This is another strong misconception that people have with holds and locks. The main focus of joint manipulation has nothing to do with long-term control. You grab the limb, cause the pain, get the reaction, capitalize on the openings created by the reaction. Even an arm bar into a full-on faceplant doesn't mean that you need to stay on top of them. Yes, it's an option, but if it's disadvantageous then you obviously wouldn't do it that way, right? Just because you start with a wrist lock in an attempt to control the situation without further violence doesn't mean that you can't just tweak it to get the base drop and twist them down and away (hopefully into the path of their friends) to allow you to start to deal with the next threat if necessary.
    Last edited by psychophipps; July 31st, 2010 at 06:16 PM. Reason: corrections

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychophipps View Post
    One thing to keep in mind that violent physical assault is often tool based and that those assaulting people don't always see the necessity of the tool on the outset of the encounter. Often a fight will start out as a fight and once the assailant realizes that things aren't going well, then they reach for their force multiplying tool like a knife or other weapon. If you focus entirely on stepping back to create room you are doing four things: 1) giving your assailant a chance to "catch their breath" and get a clearer picture of the situation, 2) allowing them free access to their tool(s) as well, 3) giving them a chance to press the attack through your defense or to bowl you over or into something, 4) potentially maneuvering into a corner as these tend to be the open spaces in rooms and other open spaces. None of these are good and can be mitigated with the concept that the best way to create space to access you tools is to go in and take ownership of the space that your assailant is currently using.
    i totally second this! if the fight is evident and you have already triedo talk your way out of it and it dont work don t create space eliminate it! the average person(and some martial arts practishiners) need space to do work i.e throw the hay maker or flying crouching tiger kick they saw on the movie! if you eliminate their space and do not give them room to do work you are one step ahead! taking away their ability to do their work and creating opportunity for you to do your work witch is up close and personal violence! get close stand your ground and never back down! in a fight you always have to be advancing because if you are not they are, witch is no good for you! after the fight has already started you have to be the aggresser not the defender! you already was the defender when the aggresser started with you! so you have t oflip the script and become the aggresser! you have to dictate the pace and what you want to accomplish not them! if they are stupid and give you a present i.e. arm, leg, head what ever hang on to it dont let go of it keep it and do work to it and then to something else untill he stops trying to harm you! if they give you an inch take a foot! in my past employment i saw alot of people get hurt because the stuff they were taught do not work on half the people we ran into! we had to use pain compliance and holds to restrain just like LEO and such and if not done right, it got you hurt! i am lucky 5 years of the s$$t and i never got hurt! but now that i dont work there no more i dont have to play by the rules of the ethics comittee and will do whatever it takes to survive! as my sig says the only way to beat violene is with violence, i do not like being in that mindset but if my life or the life of my love ones are at stake i will jump ship, do work, and then go back to being me and back to my family safe and sound!! stay safe guys,,,,,,,,later
    The only way to beat Violence, is with Violence!

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    I'd not want to go with a pain compliance maneuver in a bar as to really do them right you need two hands which will fill your hands and I think you might end up focusing too much on the initial threat and not his possible cohorts.
    Staying out of bars is the best way to eliminate this threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    While I have PPCT training and some martial arts, I would rather create distance . If they keep coming then the fight is on. Pain compliance for Le work makes sense as you are detaining someone. As a concealed carrier I just want to be left alone.
    I have very little martial arts training and no compliance training. I agree here. Do what you have to do to create distance. Distance equals time. If they continue to escalate then revert to Click Pow form of defense.
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  11. #41
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    While I do believe that pain compliance techniques should be in everyone's defensive toolbox, it does have its limitations.

    However, my Sensei used to use me all the time to demonstrate how pain compliance techniques may not work. Due to a previous injury to my right wrist I happen to very susceptible to wrist locks on my right side (I cry and end up on the floor). Try the same technique on my left side and I laugh at you.
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