Pain Compliance...Yay or Nay?

This is a discussion on Pain Compliance...Yay or Nay? within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In an attempt to forestall any extra threadjacking in mercop's Tactical Pen thread, I would like to hear people's opinions on this subject. Feel free ...

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Thread: Pain Compliance...Yay or Nay?

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    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Pain Compliance...Yay or Nay?

    In an attempt to forestall any extra threadjacking in mercop's Tactical Pen thread, I would like to hear people's opinions on this subject. Feel free to be a bit in-depth into your thought process, please, as this will hopefully keep things from the "Oh yeah?!?" "Yeah!" "Oh yeah?!?" "Yeah!" "Oh yeah?!?"...that they can devolve into.

    My take on pain compliance techniques is that they are an initial-aggression forceful deescalation attempt and not at the expense of other techniques being viable if they prove necessary.
    Take the initial stereotypical push or grab in a bar for instance. You could then meld into the push or grab and go for a pain compliance technique that disrupts the assailant's base in an attempt to let them know that their actions are not cool. You're trying to be nice and not let things get out of hand here before you take your leave of the situation.
    Now, if the assailant is already in full-on Rock-em', Sock-em' Robots or gets free of your initial attempt at controlling them then a different option should definitely be considered. People on adrenaline don't respond well to pain so an attempt to gain compliance from an obviously already very irate person with nothing but the very thing that adrenaline suppresses is probably not the Chinese way to long life, or to not getting your nose mashed. As most pain compliance techniques have a base disruption element, these techniques should be counted on only for this secondary effect in these situations.
    Since I've already discussed unarmed situations then I hope it's obvious that armed situations have the same circumstances for pain compliance technique use as an already irate assailant. You can still use them, most pain compliance techniques also include a base disruption element as mentioned before, but only for this secondary effect. In such situations I strongly advise that you swap from a compliance technique to a destructive technique that will remove a tool from your assailant's arsenal, the compression lock being pretty much my go-to technique for such situations if I can get to it. Simply dumping them on their side/back and doing a full-on knee drop on their head and/or floaters is a close second favorite.

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    VIP Member Array jwhite75's Avatar
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    I was trained early in my career in a correctional setting. We used the PPCT system. I find it very effective. Employed correctly the smallest woman can take on the biggest man and control him. Definitely a valuable asset. As I feel you should be at least as much competent in empty hand tactics as you are with weapons.
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    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    That's a great post. You pretty much nailed it on the head.

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    Member Array XDshooter's Avatar
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    Our defensive tactics program at the Jail where I work is a mix of traditional PPCT, Aikido, Sambo, Ground Combatives, MMA, GAGE, as well as some wrist locks of unknown origin but proven effectiveness. I would agree that the pain compliance stuff is great, but only to someone that is in a state of mind that is receptive to it. I have discovered that when individuals that come to the Jail are strung out or high, their pain tolerance is out of whack. That is where the wrist lock/joint manipulation portion of our system comes into play. The last several scuffles that I have been involved in, I skipped right over the "pain compliance" goal and went right for locking them up in a joint lock. At that point, it's body mechanics keeping them from harming/resisting me and not the reliance on a technique to "hurt them into giving up". Simply, if you can't move, you can't resist. We pride ourselves on having a top-shelf DT program and most of the surrounding agencies send their people to us for the yearly recert. It's really good stuff.

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    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    In many situations you have to do some "softening up" before you can employ a pain compliance technique. Pain compliance techniques are viable but you have to know the when, where and how to use them effectively.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

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    Senior Member Array kb2wji's Avatar
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    Also know that pain compliance does not work on everyone. Some people simply dont feel pain (somebody thats really drunk, doped up, or just plain crazy). Others are somehow immune to certain PPCT techniques. Some work, some dont, depending on the individual. Moral of the story is this: dont rely on one technique as an end-all. Have a plan-b. That said...most of the time, it works as it should, and is quite effective.

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    Member Array yankeeman's Avatar
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    If your going to try it you better have been trained somewhat in what you are doing. Having been trained in a couple different systems for work I feel pretty confident in what I can do, BUT this comes with having done it hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times. When you first start out you learn really quick that it can go very wrong very fast if you don't know what your doing and without continual practice/implementation.

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    Member Array yankeeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XDshooter View Post
    That is where the wrist lock/joint manipulation portion of our system comes into play. The last several scuffles that I have been involved in, I skipped right over the "pain compliance" goal and went right for locking them up in a joint lock.
    I am a big fan of joint locks. I have seen some big, aggressive people on their knees pretty quick with a simple wrist lock.

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    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    I put the use of joint locks firmly into the "pain compliance" area of my toolbox. My reasoning for this is the mentioned fact above that they simply don't work all of the time due to factors you probably are not aware of at the time of the encounter or simply because of the shifting and moving around of a struggle. I have selected certain locks for focusing on because they can fairly easily be ramped up immediately from pain compliance to destructive with minimal difficulty.

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Idiot in a bar? control the situation, use pain if needed

    Guy with a weapon? (bottle, knife) screw compliance...break his wrist/arm..
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    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    If you are duty bound it has a place, if you are a citizen you are under no obligation to "control" anyone. Just as when you step in the crowd it floods around you, when you go hands on with someone you have at least one hand holding onto them and the world floods around you as task fixation takes over. IMHO PC has no place in a one on one fight whether it is the police or a citizen. When you have a few people trying to control someone then yes. Attacking points that do not also provide a mechanical advantage is not a good idea. As many have done here please give us an idea of your background. Controlling someone in a training setting and a street setting are two different things. If nothing else in training nobody is going to jump you. The goal has to be to move through/past the threat. We don't accumulate problems.- George

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    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    If you are duty bound it has a place, if you are a citizen you are under no obligation to "control" anyone. Just as when you step in the crowd it floods around you, when you go hands on with someone you have at least one hand holding onto them and the world floods around you as task fixation takes over. IMHO PC has no place in a one on one fight whether it is the police or a citizen. When you have a few people trying to control someone then yes. Attacking points that do not also provide a mechanical advantage is not a good idea. As many have done here please give us an idea of your background. Controlling someone in a training setting and a street setting are two different things. If nothing else in training nobody is going to jump you. The goal has to be to move through/past the threat. We don't accumulate problems.- George
    I agree with this mindset completely but at least giving it a go, provided you're not endangering yourself more in the process, is a strong legal defense for a civilian to use. If your martial arts training comes into knowledge, and it almost certainly will be, during a court proceeding then everyone's mind immediately jumps to Jackie Chan and Ong Bok where people are taking incredibly brutal blows only to shuffle off later swearing revenge while clutching their bruised backsides and egos with their off hand and shaking their dominant hand at you impotently.
    With my Defend, Counter, Control, Destroy use-of-force continuum I can easily articulate at each level of the engagement what I was doing, why I was doing it, and why I had to take it to the next level. Remember that "control" doesn't just mean a hammer lock and me jumping on some guy's back with a banshee war cry to hold them in place until the local LEOs show up. Control can be base disruption before I do a runner. Control can be an armbar to a takedown. Control can be a "softener" before an attempt at other pain compliance methods. All of these would not be applied at the loss of a potential ramping up of my response to "Destroy" if the situation continues to deteriorate.

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    Member Array Bm7b5's Avatar
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    What's your goal?

    I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario in which "pain compliance" techniques would have a de-escalation effect, yet leaving the area or telling someone to leave you alone would not be effective.
    A traffic ticket is formal recognition of a lapse in situational awareness.

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    Senior Member Array psychophipps's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario in which "pain compliance" techniques would have a de-escalation effect, yet leaving the area or telling someone to leave you alone would not be effective.
    Pain compliance comes after, "Hey buddy, leave (insert first or third person descriptor here) alone". If that fails and things appear to be headed in their original course, and leaving your own home or current location provides for difficulties, then you might just have to ramp things up a bit and get more "hands on". By using a pain compliance technique you can easily deescalate situations by removing non-optimal personages from your vicinity and placing a rather solid impediment in their return transitionary route.

    I had a few situations in the MAX lightrail system where a fellow rider was being a bit on the ornery side. I would wait until the doors were about to close at a stop and then I would "direct" them to the nearest exit so the rest of us could ride to their stops safely and/or in peace. Yeah, I can hear a bunch of you gasping and muttering about how I was "assaulting" people but every cop and Tri-Met driver I ever talked to about it was quite happy that I didn't make them take their time from another call or their duties to eject another troublemaker from the train.

    Besides, it says right on the ticket that not following the guidelines of acceptable behavior in the train will result in your expulsion from the vehicle without a refund...

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    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bm7b5 View Post
    I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario in which "pain compliance" techniques would have a de-escalation effect, yet leaving the area or telling someone to leave you alone would not be effective.
    With respect to LE it depends on the commitment of the person that might be resisting. Sometimes a quick jolt of pain is enough to get the person to comply. There may be some carry over into certain situations (you've got an unruly individual at a house party and you need to move them out) but turning back a committed street attacker is probably going to start with applying some hard techniques (striking) before the opportunity presents itself to apply a pain compliance technique.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

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