Collapsible batons

This is a discussion on Collapsible batons within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by QKShooter Most places are not going to sell or ship you a collapsible baton unless it is either ordered on verifiable LEO ...

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Thread: Collapsible batons

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Bubbiesdad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Most places are not going to sell or ship you a collapsible baton unless it is either ordered on verifiable LEO Letterhead or you provide documentation of "up to date" baton certification.
    I purchased mine the same place I received certification.
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  3. #17
    Member Array motorhed66's Avatar
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    Peacekeeper international makes a heavy duty one that is hard to beat . I have a cop associate that said they are all junk till he got to handle this one .

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by motorhed66 View Post
    Peacekeeper international makes a heavy duty one that is hard to beat . I have a cop associate that said they are all junk till he got to handle this one .
    Looks like a great baton, but they are only sold to LEO's. They will ship to the agency address. The only way they ship directly to the officers residence is if the officer includes a copy of their dept. ID and then the Officers Department must verify the officers home address.

    Policy Quote:
    We sell expandable batons to Law Enforcement, Military & Security ONLY. For the safety of Law Enforcement Officers, all batons MUST be shipped to one's department. As an exception, we also understand that some officers may not live close to their station or their department does not allow for officers to receive items at work. If this is the case, officers who purchased batons may have them shipped to their home ONLY IF a department ID is faxed or emailed to us. All shipping addresses will be confirmed with department's address prior to shipping. To eliminate any delays in shipping, be sure to provide your station's address. This policy does not apply to the purchase of holsters and accessories.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    If you are justified to use deadly force, then you can use "anything" to accomplish it. LEO baton training is based on striking large muscle groups and pain compliance, not mechanical failure. Then we wonder why police officer continue to beat a suspect like a harp seal when they don't stop. Task fixation sets in and the mind gets suck in a loop, and they continue to hit harder and still with no avail when what they have been taught fails. Traditional stick fighting did not rely on pain compliance, nor did baton use back when a police had to lock a guy up and drag him back to a call box. They both used was works, using impact weapons to strike bone. One good crack to a collar bone with a baton will deanimate the whole arm. We should also bring back saps. Too many police think everything can be settled at stand off distances with a Taser. Police as slow to use the baton because they have little experience with it under realistic conditions, add that to the training and you remove the teeth from a great tool.

    As far as using one for self-defense, especially in confined spaces. We have seen that time and time again regardless of training people revert to swinging with reptative angle one strikes (moving high right-low left for a right handed person). This means the travel of the baton in your hand is going to move it way outside the silhouette of your attacker not to mention smashing your hand against vertical objects, or into the reach of a subsequent attacker. I have had both happen.- George

  6. #20
    Member Array SCALPHUNTER's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911PKR View Post
    Hummmm..... interesting, been carrying one in my work van for years. Sure thought it was legal in Missouri. Mines pretty cheap but, it looks like a good woop ass tool if I had to resort to it. Problem for most people, including myself, if your not trained to use one, it'll end up getting used on you (and that's goin' to leave a mark).
    I carried one years ago when I was in law enforcement, and I wanted to know if I could still carry one, so about two months ago, I called and checked with the local Sheriff's Dept and the Missouri Prosecuting Attorney's Office to see what the law was now, regarding carrying batons in Missouri. I was advised they are still illegal to "carry" in this state unless you are a law enforcement officer.
    "God hears all prayers, even when the answer is No."

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCALPHUNTER View Post
    I called and checked with a local Sheriff's Dept and the Missouri Prosecuting Attorney's Office on collapsible batons (Asps) in Missouri about two months ago. I was advised they are illegal to "carry" in this state unless you are a law enforcement officer.
    you might want to check up on state statutes on that one...leo are not always the best source of carry information...

  8. #22
    New Member Array knock's Avatar
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    I live in MO and here is my 2 cents about expandable batons (MO only) .

    I believe they fall under the definition of blackjack according to RSMO.

    571.010. As used in this chapter, the following terms shall mean
    (2) "Blackjack", any instrument that is designed or adapted for the purpose of stunning or inflicting physical injury by striking a person, and which is readily capable of lethal use;

    It is illegal to carry a blackjack on your person according to 571.030:
    1. A person commits the crime of unlawful use of weapons if he or she knowingly:
    (1) Carries concealed upon or about his or her person a knife, a firearm, a blackjack or any other weapon readily capable of lethal use; or

    Unless you have your CCW according to 571.030 2 (4)
    4. Subdivisions (1), (8), and (10) of subsection 1 of this section shall not apply to any person who has a valid concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a valid permit or endorsement to carry concealed firearms issued by another state or political subdivision of another state.

    So if you can carry a concealed firearm you can carry an expandable baton. Anyone from MO please let me know if I am wrong in my analysis.

    I have considered getting an expandable baton in case SHTF here and they take away our firearms like they did in NO. I still would like to be able to protect myself. I think I may pick one up a the next local gun show.

  9. #23
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    Back when I was a California cop in the 70’s it was a felony to have a knight stick whereas it was a misdemeanor to have a concealed gun. If I recall, this all goes back to the older gangster days of brass knuckles, saps, etc.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Most places are not going to sell or ship you a collapsible baton unless it is either ordered on verifiable LEO Letterhead or you provide documentation of "up to date" baton certification.
    Regardless of my opinion of one for HD or SD...

    The local flea market has a dozen vendors that sell knockoff versions of the ASP or other collapsable baton. Spring whips, saps, blackjacks, and brass knuckle "paperweights" too. I'm sure there's something similar near you, even if it's on the fringe of being legal.
    Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)

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  11. #25
    Member Array WvHiker's Avatar
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    funny you should ask

    www.d3protection.com

    I just happened to be looking around for the same thing about an hour ago. Pricey, but they have a lot of weapons I'd like to have, just for the sake of owning nice examples.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    David makes some great stuff. I will actually be doing a Youtube video tonight showing off some finger saps he made for me. I have used and carried an expandable baton effectively. Contrary to what some say they are extremely easy to carry in plain clothes. When I was in Special Operations I carried mine in the front of my waistband, it was comfortable even in the car. Here is the problem as I see it, they are illegal for everyone except sworn police almost everywhere, so if you wear/carry on and someone sees it, police or otherwise, they are likely to logically conclude that you are law enforcement. If you carry one in a fashion other that was I have described you will get spotted or dropped, both draw unwanted attention.

    Again we are back to the pen/kubaton, something you can carry everywhere, even in your hand, which is better that 100 tools in your belt/pocket. If you don't think they are effective then you have not been educated. I used a closed 16/18 inch as very effectively more than I used them expanded. Once they are expanded you will revert to swinging, that sucks in confined spaces and the more time the stick is in the air the more chance of it being grabbed or blocked.

    Now, if you can carry a sap, and IMHO they should be legal for police and citizens everywhere, then carry one, and learn how to use it. And if you get a sap, get it from D3 Protection.
    http://www.themensroomonline.net/page44/page44.html

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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    David makes some great stuff. I will actually be doing a Youtube video tonight showing off some finger saps he made for me.

    Now, if you can carry a sap, and IMHO they should be legal for police and citizens everywhere, then carry one, and learn how to use it. And if you get a sap, get it from D3 Protection.
    http://www.themensroomonline.net/page44/page44.html


    - George
    I completely agree with George, that if you can legally carry a sap, carry one and get training how to use it. They are a versatile tool with significant capabilities in trained hands. They can be used flat, on edge, fore end or butt, to attack muscle groups, joints, bones or consciousness. One of the big mistakes of trained and untrained users alike is immediately going for head strikes, which may easily be interpreted as lethal force. Personally I see head strikes at the bottom of the target list, depending on circumstances. In addition, head strikes require considerable experience to achieve the desired results, usually unconsciousness, without excess damage/injury to the recipient.

    Personally I prefer the Gonzales design over the Texan design. The Gonzales is thicker, heavier (23/24oz vs 10-14oz) and is/was filled with powdered lead or shot vs a solid lead piece. That is not to say that the Texan design is ineffective and it is easier to conceal. My preference is influenced by my own experience with the Gonzales in many years of daily carry and use. My experience with the Gonzales originated from working with the creator of the Gonzales sap.

    I have included a couple pics to allow visual comparison of the two designs. The flatter one is the Texan.
    Attached Images

  14. #28
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    Thanks George....I cant wait to see what you come up with!


    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I completely agree with George, that if you can legally carry a sap, carry one and get training how to use it. They are a versatile tool with significant capabilities in trained hands. They can be used flat, on edge, fore end or butt, to attack muscle groups, joints, bones or consciousness. One of the big mistakes of trained and untrained users alike is immediately going for head strikes, which may easily be interpreted as lethal force. Personally I see head strikes at the bottom of the target list, depending on circumstances. In addition, head strikes require considerable experience to achieve the desired results, usually unconsciousness, without excess damage/injury to the recipient.

    Personally I prefer the Gonzales design over the Texan design. The Gonzales is thicker, heavier (23/24oz vs 10-14oz) and is/was filled with powdered lead or shot vs a solid lead piece. That is not to say that the Texan design is ineffective and it is easier to conceal. My preference is influenced by my own experience with the Gonzales in many years of daily carry and use. My experience with the Gonzales originated from working with the creator of the Gonzales sap.

    I have included a couple pics to allow visual comparison of the two designs. The flatter one is the Texan.
    What model of Gonzales is that? I have been working on making the 415 model......It is between 18.5 - 20oz

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maker View Post
    Thanks George....I cant wait to see what you come up with!




    What model of Gonzales is that? I have been working on making the 415 model......It is between 18.5 - 20oz
    That is a 245. I have a 415 floating around somewhere. It has a little less flex/whip than the 245, possibly due to weight, but it also has not had the use the 245 has.

  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    That is a 245. I have a 415 floating around somewhere. It has a little less flex/whip than the 245, possibly due to weight, but it also has not had the use the 245 has.
    Very cool sap! Thanks for posting pics....

    In my quest to make the 415 I ran across some pretty beat up ones. I think you are right, the flex is due to useage....

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