Expandable Batons does anyone here carry one? - Page 2

Expandable Batons does anyone here carry one?

This is a discussion on Expandable Batons does anyone here carry one? within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by glockman10mm I carry one on a daily basis, but the only time I have ever used it was to break a windshield ...

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Thread: Expandable Batons does anyone here carry one?

  1. #16
    Member Array Ishmael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I carry one on a daily basis, but the only time I have ever used it was to break a windshield to get access to an idiot during a felony stop, who apparently thought if he locked the doors we would just go away.

    I always take it with me overseas with a can of pepper spray when I can't carry a sidearm. It saved my bacon in Durbin South Africa during a mugging attempt.
    THis made me curious about the rules for OC in checked baggage. Went here, found this:


    "Self Defense Sprays - One 4 ounce (118ml) container of mace or pepper spray is permitted in checked baggage provided it is equipped with a safety mechanism to prevent accidental discharge. Self Defense Sprays containing more than 2% by mass of Tear Gas (CS or CN) are prohibited in Checked Baggage."


    I guess they're saying they don't care how strong your OC is? Good to know.


  2. #17
    Member Array Gunsmoke16's Avatar
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    Just went through the certification course for the baton. It is illegal to carry one in TN without the proper certification and law translates (the Duck rule...if it walks, looks, quacks like a duck, it is a duck) to include pretty much anything over 6" or so that could be used to "whack" someone with, including a tire thumper (unless you're driving a big rig), saps, sticks, spring batons, etc. If you hit someone with a Mag Light (3 or 4 cell would hurt) you would be charged with using a club/baton....friend "almost" got this charge once and only thing that saved his bacon was that he had a Night Eyes handle strap attached to it that his hand was through and him saying the guy tried to hit him (he was a drunk that was beating a woman) and he instinctively reacted and accidentally knocked the guy out with the head of the flashlight. Cops were being buggers on the matter until he came to and proceeded to beat two of them with his fists, until they had to pile on and arrest him. If you are stopped with any manner in the vehicle without proper certification (you should never consent to search without a shift Sgt present or them having a warrant) they will probably charge you....better totally out of sight/out of mind. On the other hand, better to be judged by 12 than carried by six. On the other hand, if you had a large framing hammer with knee pads and a utility belt nearby with some supplies and a large flashlight...maybe you are a carpenter that just nailed a bad guy!

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    As stated earlier in another post, in NC you can not carry one concealed. You may wish to consider another form of additional choices.

    If you are found to be carrying an illegally concealed weapon you can (and most likely will) lose your concealed carry permit and also not be able to purchase handguns in NC.

  4. #19
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    Yes in my car in the left front door pouch along with a FOX stream Spray Cannister. If I have to get into the bottom center console that brings out the G-19 and 2 spare Mags stoked with Cor-Bon DPX ammo.
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  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Crescentstar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Thunder View Post
    Yes in my car in the left front door pouch along with a FOX stream Spray Cannister. If I have to get into the bottom center console that brings out the G-19 and 2 spare Mags stoked with Cor-Bon DPX ammo.
    Just a word of caution. Watch that OC in a hot car, it can burst in the heat. Don't ask me how I know this.................

  6. #21
    Senior Member Array 45ACP4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crescentstar View Post
    Just a word of caution. Watch that OC in a hot car, it can burst in the heat. Don't ask me how I know this.................


    Now that we have CCW, one of the things allowed is a billy club. Seriously, it says billy club in the law

    I doubt I will carry one, OC spray is much smaller and a bit better of a non-lethal option in my opinion, but it is another tool for the toolbox.
    "It is your evil that will be sought by us. With every breath we will hunt them down. Each day we will spill their blood, until it rains down from the skies. Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles that every man from every faith can embrace." -McManus twins Boondock Saints

  7. #22
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    Collapsable batons are really more of a "proactive" weapon to gain pain compliance and control unruly subjects. They are not really ideal "defensive" weapons. And here is why....

    As civilian non sworn personnel you have no duty to stay and try to take someone into custody. Your "use of force continuum" should not be based on police who DO have a duty to lay hands on people and control them. You as a private citizen need only get away, or in the case of otherwise unavoidable probability of grave bodily injury or death, use lethal force to stop it. police can use ANY force necessary to affect an arrest....not just equal force. Civilians can only use equal force to resist an assault.

    What do I mean? The cops can use a baton to beat down an unarmed guy who refuses to comply. You as a private citizen can only use an equal amount of force to what the assailant is using on you. There are very few instances where the good guy would be justified in pulling a baton...but not a pistol. You see the baton is very likely to be viewed as a "club" and viewed as lethal force in the hands of a civilian...not a pain compliance weapon like it is viewed in the hands of a sworn officer.

    The civilian ...who has NO duty to take people into custody... who produces the baton (instead of running away)and beats down the assailant is very likely to be viewed as taking part in mutually agreed upon combat and then using the "club" to commit aggravated assault. Again if you were justified in pulling the baton... (they were threatening you with lethal force) you were probably justified in pulling the gun. And since in most places to be legal to carry the baton you will have to also have a pistol carry permit...the two are somewhat redundant and the baton is a solution in search of a question.

    Having said that, I am actually certified to carry an impact weapon in the state of Tennessee. In Tennessee it is an affirmative defense to carrying a "club" if you have been certified by someone who is certified to certify people in the use of impact weapons. I did the Monadnock certification and carry my card with my carry permit. But the impact weapon really is a very limited use item.
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  8. #23
    Senior Member Array 45ACP4ever's Avatar
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    I will agree that it has limited use, but I could see a situation or two where it might come in handy. A large man approaches you and starts shoving you around, you go to leave and he throws you against the wall. A baton to the leg would give someone a chance to break away and leave.
    "It is your evil that will be sought by us. With every breath we will hunt them down. Each day we will spill their blood, until it rains down from the skies. Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles that every man from every faith can embrace." -McManus twins Boondock Saints

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cruel Hand Luke View Post
    Collapsable batons are really more of a "proactive" weapon to gain pain compliance and control unruly subjects. They are not really ideal "defensive" weapons. And here is why....

    As civilian non sworn personnel you have no duty to stay and try to take someone into custody. Your "use of force continuum" should not be based on police who DO have a duty to lay hands on people and control them. You as a private citizen need only get away, or in the case of otherwise unavoidable probability of grave bodily injury or death, use lethal force to stop it. police can use ANY force necessary to affect an arrest....not just equal force. Civilians can only use equal force to resist an assault.

    What do I mean? The cops can use a baton to beat down an unarmed guy who refuses to comply. You as a private citizen can only use an equal amount of force to what the assailant is using on you. There are very few instances where the good guy would be justified in pulling a baton...but not a pistol. You see the baton is very likely to be viewed as a "club" and viewed as lethal force in the hands of a civilian...not a pain compliance weapon like it is viewed in the hands of a sworn officer.

    The civilian ...who has NO duty to take people into custody... who produces the baton (instead of running away)and beats down the assailant is very likely to be viewed as taking part in mutually agreed upon combat and then using the "club" to commit aggravated assault. Again if you were justified in pulling the baton... (they were threatening you with lethal force) you were probably justified in pulling the gun. And since in most places to be legal to carry the baton you will have to also have a pistol carry permit...the two are somewhat redundant and the baton is a solution in search of a question.

    Having said that, I am actually certified to carry an impact weapon in the state of Tennessee. In Tennessee it is an affirmative defense to carrying a "club" if you have been certified by someone who is certified to certify people in the use of impact weapons. I did the Monadnock certification and carry my card with my carry permit. But the impact weapon really is a very limited use item.
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  10. #25
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    Cool

    It is always good to know your state statutes in regards to justifiable use of force.

    To say that you can only use an equal amount of force that the assailant is using against you would be incorrect in a self defense situation.

    If disparity of force is involved such as a male assaulting a female or multiple assailants and they are using empty hands you are not required to use only empty hands to protect yourself.

    If I am 65 years old and the assailant is 25 years old and out weighs me by 50 lbs and is beating me with his fists I do not have to defend myself with only my fists.

    In Florida 776.012 Use of force in defense of person states:

    "A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, againsts another when and to the extent that the person resonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another againsts the other's use of unlawful force".

    If I am being assaulted by a much younger and stronger assailant who is using his fists and I use my hardwood walking cane to thrust strike to his abdomen then strike him in his lower leg below his knee to escape his attack I am well within the law.

    If I am being assaulted by a individual using his fists and I use pepper spray or a taser to defend myself I am well within the law as both are permitted to be carried for lawful self defense in Florida without a CCW.

    The key is using lawful force againsts unlawful force.

    Regards,

    OS
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  11. #26
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 45ACP4ever View Post
    I will agree that it has limited use, but I could see a situation or two where it might come in handy. A large man approaches you and starts shoving you around, you go to leave and he throws you against the wall. A baton to the leg would give someone a chance to break away and leave.
    A KICK to the knee will probably do it too......
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  12. #27
    Member Array Cruel Hand Luke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    It is always good to know your state statutes in regards to justifiable use of force.

    To say that you can only use an equal amount of force that the assailant is using against you would be incorrect in a self defense situation.

    If disparity of force is involved such as a male assaulting a female or multiple assailants and they are using empty hands you are not required to use only empty hands to protect yourself.

    If I am 65 years old and the assailant is 25 years old and out weighs me by 50 lbs and is beating me with his fists I do not have to defend myself with only my fists.

    In Florida 776.012 Use of force in defense of person states:

    "A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, againsts another when and to the extent that the person resonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another againsts the other's use of unlawful force".

    If I am being assaulted by a much younger and stronger assailant who is using his fists and I use my hardwood walking cane to thrust strike to his abdomen then strike him in his lower leg below his knee to escape his attack I am well within the law.

    If I am being assaulted by a individual using his fists and I use pepper spray or a taser to defend myself I am well within the law as both are permitted to be carried for lawful self defense in Florida without a CCW.

    The key is using lawful force againsts unlawful force.

    Regards,

    OS


    Yes and no. You are comparing apples and oranges. A civilian can only use equal force. You can't shoot people unless they present an otherwise unavoidable threat of crippling injury or death. If they DO present that threat of crippling injury or death then YES you can use the SAME force. That is force that would cause crippling injury or death to them. But you CAN NOT use lethal force in response to MINOR injury. You can't shoot people, stab them or hit them with clubs for kicking you in the shin. The force you use can not exceed the threat posed to you.

    Death is death no matter what it is caused by.And if you are in REASONABLE fear of crippling injury or death then you can use that SAME FORCE on them. I didn't say the same WEAPON I said the same LEVEL OF FORCE. If they have a gun...you can shoot them. If they have a knife? Shoot them. If they have a club? Shoot them. If they are bigger and stronger but unarmed ? Probably still gonna be OK to shoot them depending on some other factors . If they are bigger stronger AND outnumber you? Probably gonna be OK to shoot AT LEAST 1 of them and probably more.

    In your post you were giving examples of clear disparity of force. In THOSE cases you'd be justified in using LETHAL force. And in THOSE cases you'd be just as justified to use a GUN as you would a club and therefore the club is largely rendered irrelevant and redundant. That was my point. If you'd be justified in hitting them with a club you'd be justified in shooting them.

    If there is no clear disparity of force present (larger, younger, better trained, or superior numbers or male on female) then NO, you CAN NOT use any more force than is being used on you. You can't shoot people(or hit them with clubs) for punching you in the nose ...UNLESS one of those disparity of force issues is present.

    But in the ABSENCE of the disparity of force issue...then you cannot use lethal force on someone that is unarmed. If another 65 year old punches you then you pulling a gun or hitting him with the cane may well draw you an aggravated assault charge.
    BUT ...if there IS disparity of force (2 unarmed 65 year old guys vs you) then you CAN use lethal force...because the disparity of force MAKES it a lethal force situation and you WOULD be justified in shooting them.

    The pepper spray and taser are not considered lethal force. So using them against an unarmed opponent is completely different than whipping out a collapsable baton against an unarmed opponent. Again...if it is OK to use a baton ...it would be a situation where it was OK to use a knife or gun.
    Last edited by Cruel Hand Luke; February 13th, 2012 at 06:06 PM.
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    In Pennsylvania a Flat SAP or a Baton is considered to be a bludgeoning instrument and not legal for citizen carry.
    Along with Knucks & switchblades & daggers.
    Leave it to a politician to suck all the doggone fun out of life.
    Same here, except they are looking at removing the length restriction on knives, and allowing switchblades now. But, I want them to make it legal for a collapsable baton. They aren't that far yet.
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  14. #29
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    A baton or club may be lethal force when used against certain parts of the body, but if I whack someone's knee to get away, I don't have to shoot the BG, who may just be drunk or have mistaken me for someone else and I don't have to deal with subsequent consequences of shooting him. Sure, I might be legally justified in shooting him, but I may not want to do it. We shouldn't kill when temporarily disabling will do. Not to mention sometimes the pain of a broken bone or other injury would convince the BG to stop faster than getting shot

  15. #30
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    Don't carry one but keep one in the car. Carry is a J frame, and a blade.

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