Deadly Force Alternatives......

This is a discussion on Deadly Force Alternatives...... within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 I used the term MACE and pepper spray interchangeably. Many here are familiar with the situation I refer to, and there ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I used the term MACE and pepper spray interchangeably. Many here are familiar with the situation I refer to, and there is a ton of info about it still on the net, but here are some Cliff Notes: Deputy Sheriff Richard Anthony Herzog, King County Sheriff's Office, Washington
    Much went wrong on his officer-down encounter, and lots of Monday morning quarterbacking took place. Notwithstanding, Rick's use of pepper spray contributed directly to his demise.
    As a codger I assumed MACE referred to CN tear gas as that was the origional. Pepper spray in my neck of the woods is referred to as "pepper spray" or "OC" to distinguish it from CN MACE rather than whatever the brand may be. Thanks for the clarification.

    As your example illustrates all too well, Murphy rears his head from time to time.
    Last edited by Paladin3840; March 23rd, 2012 at 06:46 PM.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    What percentage is allowed by a CCer %18-%20 ??
    H/D
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I used the term MACE and pepper spray interchangeably. Many here are familiar with the situation I refer to, and there is a ton of info about it still on the net, but here are some Cliff Notes: Deputy Sheriff Richard Anthony Herzog, King County Sheriff's Office, Washington
    Much went wrong on his officer-down encounter, and lots of Monday morning quarterbacking took place. Notwithstanding, Rick's use of pepper spray contributed directly to his demise.
    Very sad indeed.

    Thank you for the additional information in regards to that tragic incident.

    I attended far to many Line of Duty funerals during my career.

    OS
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

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  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array Burns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I used the term MACE and pepper spray interchangeably. Many here are familiar with the situation I refer to, and there is a ton of info about it still on the net, but here are some Cliff Notes: Deputy Sheriff Richard Anthony Herzog, King County Sheriff's Office, Washington
    Much went wrong on his officer-down encounter, and lots of Monday morning quarterbacking took place. Notwithstanding, Rick's use of pepper spray contributed directly to his demise.
    Do you know how the gun fell on the ground? and how the magazine came out? It didn't mention much in the article.
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable- JFK

  6. #20
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    I am not a fan of using non lethal methods that may lead to a more deadly confrontation. Obviously you cannot prepare for every situation. You cannot get out of every situation. If I cannot get out of the situation, and the business end of a sixgun doesn't cause the threat to change their mind..... then one would assume that deadly force would be necessary to stop the threat. Otherwise, simply using the weapon as a threat stop... then calling 911 and giving a detailed and document record of what just went down would go a long way in establishing my intentions to simply defend myself.
    21bubba and Mike1956 like this.

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I am not a fan of using non lethal methods that may lead to a more deadly confrontation. Obviously you cannot prepare for every situation. You cannot get out of every situation. If I cannot get out of the situation, and the business end of a sixgun doesn't cause the threat to change their mind..... then one would assume that deadly force would be necessary to stop the threat. Otherwise, simply using the weapon as a threat stop... then calling 911 and giving a detailed and document record of what just went down would go a long way in establishing my intentions to simply defend myself.
    Exactly what he said.

  8. #22
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    I think we live in a very unpredictable society,I think if you have the time to evaluate how serious the threat is then its not a threat at all

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array AZ Desertrat's Avatar
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    pepper spray AND something else is always a good bet....I have spray, knives and a 26 inch ASP baton available at all times.
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government--lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." --Patrick Henry

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  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array Burns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Desertrat View Post
    pepper spray AND something else is always a good bet....I have spray, knives and a 26 inch ASP baton available at all times.
    I have those also, well a 21 and a 16 inch baton, but waiting on my CCW permit so I can actually carry them outside of my property :/
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable- JFK

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    Check out... "Phazzer.Com"
    Different version of a 'Tazzer'.
    Doesnt use powder, like a traditional Tazzer.
    1/2 the price, and interchangeable loads (Pepper Ball/spray, rubber ball, wired "prongs"(like Tazzer)
    NO CCW required (per ATF)

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Burns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AR15VSCoyote View Post
    Check out... "Phazzer.Com"
    Different version of a 'Tazzer'.
    Doesnt use powder, like a traditional Tazzer.
    1/2 the price, and interchangeable loads (Pepper Ball/spray, rubber ball, wired "prongs"(like Tazzer)
    NO CCW required (per ATF)
    gotta get me one of those

    (they are $600 however) not cheaper by any means
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable- JFK

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunplay View Post
    I think we live in a very unpredictable society,I think if you have the time to evaluate how serious the threat is then its not a threat at all
    Please do continue, my rabbit is looking for his pancake.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    I don't think anyone here wishes to MMQB this dep. Rather, I hope the situation is studied and applied for future deps in the form of Officer Survival Training. You state that "much went wrong", hopefully these things can be studied and different tactics applied in the future.

    My original question still remains, with all due respect: But, what is your suggestion, then, for the continuum of force? Lotta steps 'tween strong language and .38spl.dan
    I leave it to the LEOs to ponder future OST. For non-LEOs, to whom the original questions were posed, I recommend (and practice) avoidance and de-escalation. I will not, and do not quarrel with fools over parking places, cuts in line or peacock struts of alpha dominance. I defer and retreat, period. I have no steps beyond that.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
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  15. #29
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    There can always be situations where what you have isn't going to handle the situation. It's silly to think otherwise. And people should really think hard on that.

    The more tools you can add to your toolbox of tricks, the better off you are going to be at handling any given situation.

    If you choose to limit yourself to very few options, things can get ugly real quick.

    If you carry only non-lethal tools to defend yourself, there is a very good possibility you're going to lose if faced with one or more attackers who are armed with deadly weapons.

    If all you carry is a gun, and nothing else, you could also end up in a very bad situation. You may feel you are forced to use your gun when it isn't warranted, and end up spending the rest of your life in prison. You could be disarmed and killed with your own gun if you possess no hand-to-hand fighting skills. Or you could simply end up getting your butt kicked because you chose not to carry pepper spray along with your gun.

    Many ccw people walk around with a gun. No less lethal tools, no hand to hand fighting skills, no spare ammo, no nothing except a gun. They shoot at the range, and they have never been to any gun fighting programs. They feel they have all they need, and that the possibility of being involved in a shooting is so remote that they will be just fine with the gun and no plan. Or a plan which has not been tested. They feel they already know how a lethal force situation is going to play out and they are just fine with what they carry. Also, most of these people have never been in a fight in their life. Or if so, it was just school yard fisticuffs way back in high school. Certainly never had anyone actually try to take their life.

    There are no guarantees in life. You can be well equipped, have the skills, have the tactics, have the tools to cover every conceivable situation, lethal or or non-lethal and still have a homeless guy gut you like a pig who surprised you and got a lucky shot in.

    I take self defense as seriously as possible for a 50 year old guy who is getting older by the year. I have plenty of tools in my bag of tricks, I'm trained in hand-to-hand and ground combat, I've been to gun fighting classes and I shoot as often as I can afford to, but not nearly as much as I'd like. And I am under no illusion that some thug or group of thugs can't or won't get the best of me. I've been involved in scuffles in the past which were deadly, although no one lost their life. I'm prepared to go there again if necessary.
    Old School and Paladin3840 like this.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I leave it to the LEOs to ponder future OST. For non-LEOs, to whom the original questions were posed, I recommend (and practice) avoidance and de-escalation. I will not, and do not quarrel with fools over parking places, cuts in line or peacock struts of alpha dominance. I defer and retreat, period. I have no steps beyond that.
    You don't carry a handgun? You just defer and retreat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    There can always be situations where what you have isn't going to handle the situation. It's silly to think otherwise. And people should really think hard on that.

    The more tools you can add to your toolbox of tricks, the better off you are going to be at handling any given situation.

    If you choose to limit yourself to very few options, things can get ugly real quick.

    If you carry only non-lethal tools to defend yourself, there is a very good possibility you're going to lose if faced with one or more attackers who are armed with deadly weapons.

    If all you carry is a gun, and nothing else, you could also end up in a very bad situation. You may feel you are forced to use your gun when it isn't warranted, and end up spending the rest of your life in prison. You could be disarmed and killed with your own gun if you possess no hand-to-hand fighting skills. Or you could simply end up getting your butt kicked because you chose not to carry pepper spray along with your gun.

    Many ccw people walk around with a gun. No less lethal tools, no hand to hand fighting skills, no spare ammo, no nothing except a gun. They shoot at the range, and they have never been to any gun fighting programs. They feel they have all they need, and that the possibility of being involved in a shooting is so remote that they will be just fine with the gun and no plan. Or a plan which has not been tested. They feel they already know how a lethal force situation is going to play out and they are just fine with what they carry. Also, most of these people have never been in a fight in their life. Or if so, it was just school yard fisticuffs way back in high school. Certainly never had anyone actually try to take their life.

    There are no guarantees in life. You can be well equipped, have the skills, have the tactics, have the tools to cover every conceivable situation, lethal or or non-lethal and still have a homeless guy gut you like a pig who surprised you and got a lucky shot in.

    I take self defense as seriously as possible for a 50 year old guy who is getting older by the year. I have plenty of tools in my bag of tricks, I'm trained in hand-to-hand and ground combat, I've been to gun fighting classes and I shoot as often as I can afford to, but not nearly as much as I'd like. And I am under no illusion that some thug or group of thugs can't or won't get the best of me. I've been involved in scuffles in the past which were deadly, although no one lost their life. I'm prepared to go there again if necessary.
    Bark'n I usually agree with you. I do this time as well... But I also agree with Mike1956. Someone here posted a video that illustrated the problem pretty well... and it applies to all of us as we get to be 50 year old guys and beyond... The more options we have the more time we take to decide... (oh I remember now... see, it's already showing up) Good video on OODA loop and Reaction time.

    The problem is, the more options we have, the more time we take to decide between them... and we all know time and distance are our friends. And JD just posted a paper on move and fire vs. stand and fire vs. take cover and fire... now, for my money... I'll spend time looking for cover while deferring... and be prepared to go all the way.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams

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