Deadly Force Alternatives......

Deadly Force Alternatives......

This is a discussion on Deadly Force Alternatives...... within the Defensive Knives & Other Weapons forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; For those of us who lawfully carry handguns and or knives for self defense the question arises what if deadly force is not needed at ...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 37
Like Tree11Likes

Thread: Deadly Force Alternatives......

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Florida Treasure Coast
    Posts
    3,211

    Cool Deadly Force Alternatives......

    For those of us who lawfully carry handguns and or knives for self defense the question arises what if deadly force is not needed at first or if at all in a self defense situation ?

    What if there is no weapon displayed by the other party ?

    What if there is no disparity of force ?

    What if it is a dispute over a parking space or some other stupid issue and the other party just will not let it go and physically gets into your safe zone ?

    What if they become physically combative ?

    What are your alternatives ?

    If you have H2H training this is definately advantages for you.

    Police officers carry other less-lethal weapons so that they can deal with the majority of physical altercations that do not require deadly force.

    Though you may not be a LEO some of the alternative less-lethal weapons that they carry may be used by the legally armed citizen if state and local laws allow.

    Pepper spray is the first that comes to mind. Easy to carry and conceal and effective the majority of the time when a quality brand is carried and used properly.

    The personal Taser is becoming more popular and is small enough to be concealed on the off side from your firearm.

    Canes and other impact weapons are permissable in some areas but as with any weapon proper training should be obtained before carrying and using.

    I bring this up because having an alternative and using it first before using deadly force if the situation allows coud save a lifetime of regret down the road.

    photo.jpgphoto.jpg
    click image to enlarge....

    OS
    Last edited by Old School; March 23rd, 2012 at 03:51 PM. Reason: word change
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,454
    Pepper spray stops most people cold right in there tracks.

    Pepper spray is the first that comes to mind. Easy to carry and conceal and effective the majority of the time when a quality brand is carried and used properly.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  3. #3
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    11,047
    Quote Originally Posted by varob View Post
    Pepper spray stops most people cold right in there tracks.
    "Most" doesn't carry the freight. My best friend was severely beaten, then murdered with his own pistol AFTER spraying the guy down with MACE.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  4. #4
    VIP Member
    Array WHEC724's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    SC
    Posts
    6,608
    Good reminder, OS. Recent events had me thinking about making a similar post.

    It is far more likely that we will all experience non-lethal confrontations. I'm generally nice to folks, but I'm not a care bear and it is quite conceivable that somebody is gonna take a poke at me. My initial reaction is not going to be lethal force.

    And if I need it (call me twisted), I see non-lethal tools all around me, just about everywhere that I go. My wife doesn't think in such a predatory way, so she carries pepper spray, which will be her first response in a non-lethal encounter. Whichever your choice of implement, it is key that the cc'er not be looking at their firearm as a primary defensive response.
    __________________________________
    'Clinging to my guns and religion

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    riverview, fl
    Posts
    765
    "Most" doesn't carry the freight. My best friend was severely beaten, then murdered with his own pistol AFTER spraying the guy down with MACE. -Mike1956

    Terribly sorry for the loss of your friend. Truly.
    But, what is your suggestion, then, for the continuum of force? Lotta steps 'tween strong language and .38spl.

    dan
    Old School likes this.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    riverview, fl
    Posts
    765
    Old School-
    good post. The ONLY thing I might ad, or change is the phrase "non-lethal" to "less lethal". Folks using these tools need to understand that the use of them MAY / CAN still result in death, even if unintentional. And even though they are marketed to be a non deadly item.

    Spray, foam, mace all rely on mucus membrane irritation that may/can lead to choking, inability to breath, respiratory failure, etc.
    Impact weapons can cause any number of lethal damages.

    Truly don't mean to sound nitpicky, but anyone choosing to utilize these tools (and they are good ones), just needs to be aware of their potential and seek proper training.

    dan
    Old School likes this.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array varob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,454
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    "Most" doesn't carry the freight. My best friend was severely beaten, then murdered with his own pistol AFTER spraying the guy down with MACE.
    That's why I said "most, and not ALL". If pepper spray and a firearm couldn't help your friend, I don't know what will.
    Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
    -Tony Soprano

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Florida Treasure Coast
    Posts
    3,211
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    "Most" doesn't carry the freight. My best friend was severely beaten, then murdered with his own pistol AFTER spraying the guy down with MACE.
    Sorry for the loss of your friend Mike1956.

    The photos of the pepper spray I posted are LE grade and the containers contain enough propellent and product to get the job done "most" of the time in a non-lethal force encounter.

    There is no absolute even with a firearm however you can increase your chances of surviving by having multiple SD options up to an including lethal force.

    Knowing when to use what option is one of the keys to coming out on top.

    The more options you have with proper training the better your chances.

    Again sorry for the loss of your friend.

    OS
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

  9. #9
    Member Array GrandBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    in the South,by God!
    Posts
    217
    I think that the civilian version of the Taser might be the best thing. Pop em and run.

    It still might get you in a lawsuit, but at least its less than lethal and it seems to stop most people right there on the spot.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    NC Foothills
    Posts
    2,631
    OS, what I'd give to have a class where the majority already had a grasp on this concept.

    The ability to react sufficiently without over reacting is a gift in many ways.
    hogdaddy likes this.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    riverview, fl
    Posts
    765
    "The ability to react sufficiently without over reacting is a gift in many ways." -NC Bullseye


    ....
    dan
    Last edited by jdsumner; March 23rd, 2012 at 04:10 PM. Reason: do not want thread locked cuz I can't behave

  12. #12
    Member
    Array Paladin3840's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    NW Florida
    Posts
    395
    We discarded MACE some 20 years ago because pepper spray, aka OC, proved significantly more effective. Given a good hit, it incapacitates about 95% of the time. Nothing instantly incapacitates 100% of the time including the Taser or a center mass hit with your favorite handgun round. In an unarmed threat situation I would argue the defender using OC employed the lesser force option at their disposal before resorting to exercising the deadly force option.

    HTH skills are good to have but I would rarely go HTH if a remote control option is available. There are too many things about the assailant's skills, determination, pain threshhold, hidden weapons, nearby confederates, etc that I rather not learn the hard way. In a civilian capacity there is no duty to capture, so "spray and get away".
    Old School likes this.

  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array Burns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Oshkosh, Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,330
    Quote Originally Posted by Paladin3840 View Post
    We discarded MACE some 20 years ago because pepper spray, aka OC, proved significantly more effective. Given a good hit, it incapacitates about 95% of the time. Nothing instantly incapacitates 100% of the time including the Taser or a center mass hit with your favorite handgun round. In an unarmed threat situation I would argue the defender using OC employed the lesser force option at their disposal before resorting to exercising the deadly force option.

    HTH skills are good to have but I would rarely go HTH if a remote control option is available. There are too many things about the assailant's skills, determination, pain threshhold, hidden weapons, nearby confederates, etc that I rather not learn the hard way. In a civilian capacity there is no duty to capture, so "spray and get away".
    MACE is just a brand name. I carry it everywhere I go. And before someone comments: It has no tear gas and no UV dye. Not all of them do. It is just 10% OC spray.
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable- JFK

  14. #14
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    11,047
    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    Sorry for the loss of your friend Mike1956.

    The photos of the pepper spray I posted are LE grade and the containers contain enough propellent and product to get the job done "most" of the time in a non-lethal force encounter.

    There is no absolute even with a firearm however you can increase your chances of surviving by having multiple SD options up to an including lethal force.

    Knowing when to use what option is one of the keys to coming out on top.

    The more options you have with proper training the better your chances.

    Again sorry for the loss of your friend.

    OS
    I used the term MACE and pepper spray interchangeably. Many here are familiar with the situation I refer to, and there is a ton of info about it still on the net, but here are some Cliff Notes: Deputy Sheriff Richard Anthony Herzog, King County Sheriff's Office, Washington
    Much went wrong on his officer-down encounter, and lots of Monday morning quarterbacking took place. Notwithstanding, Rick's use of pepper spray contributed directly to his demise.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    riverview, fl
    Posts
    765
    I don't think anyone here wishes to MMQB this dep. Rather, I hope the situation is studied and applied for future deps in the form of Officer Survival Training. You state that "much went wrong", hopefully these things can be studied and different tactics applied in the future.

    My original question still remains, with all due respect: But, what is your suggestion, then, for the continuum of force? Lotta steps 'tween strong language and .38spl.


    dan

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

alternative to deadly force
,
alternative to using deadly force
,

alternatives to deadly force

,
alternatives to the use of deadly force
,
alternatives to using deadly force
,
are knives deadly force
,

deadly force alternatives

,
deadly force options
,
other alternatives to deadly force
,
phazzer equalizer
,
police alternatives to deadly force
,
what are some alternatives of deadly force
Click on a term to search for related topics.