Deadly Force Alternatives......

[Old School]

For those of us who lawfully carry handguns and or knives for self defense the question arises what if deadly force is not needed at first or if at all in a self defense situation ?

What if there is no weapon displayed by the other party ?

What if there is no disparity of force ?

What if it is a dispute over a parking space or some other stupid issue and the other party just will not let it go and physically gets into your safe zone ?

What if they become physically combative ?

What are your alternatives ?

If you have H2H training this is definately advantages for you.

Police officers carry other less-lethal weapons so that they can deal with the majority of physical altercations that do not require deadly force.

Though you may not be a LEO some of the alternative less-lethal weapons that they carry may be used by the legally armed citizen if state and local laws allow.

Pepper spray is the first that comes to mind. Easy to carry and conceal and effective the majority of the time when a quality brand is carried and used properly.

The personal Taser is becoming more popular and is small enough to be concealed on the off side from your firearm.

Canes and other impact weapons are permissable in some areas but as with any weapon proper training should be obtained before carrying and using.

I bring this up because having an alternative and using it first before using deadly force if the situation allows coud save a lifetime of regret down the road.

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click image to enlarge....

OS

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[varob]

Pepper spray stops most people cold right in there tracks.

Pepper spray is the first that comes to mind. Easy to carry and conceal and effective the majority of the time when a quality brand is carried and used properly.

[Mike1956]

Pepper spray stops most people cold right in there tracks.

"Most" doesn't carry the freight. My best friend was severely beaten, then murdered with his own pistol AFTER spraying the guy down with MACE.

[WHEC724]

Good reminder, OS. Recent events had me thinking about making a similar post.

It is far more likely that we will all experience non-lethal confrontations. I'm generally nice to folks, but I'm not a care bear and it is quite conceivable that somebody is gonna take a poke at me. My initial reaction is not going to be lethal force.

And if I need it (call me twisted), I see non-lethal tools all around me, just about everywhere that I go. My wife doesn't think in such a predatory way, so she carries pepper spray, which will be her first response in a non-lethal encounter. Whichever your choice of implement, it is key that the cc'er not be looking at their firearm as a primary defensive response.

[jdsumner]

"Most" doesn't carry the freight. My best friend was severely beaten, then murdered with his own pistol AFTER spraying the guy down with MACE. -Mike1956

Terribly sorry for the loss of your friend. Truly.
But, what is your suggestion, then, for the continuum of force? Lotta steps 'tween strong language and .38spl.

dan

[jdsumner]

Old School-
good post. The ONLY thing I might ad, or change is the phrase "non-lethal" to "less lethal". Folks using these tools need to understand that the use of them MAY / CAN still result in death, even if unintentional. And even though they are marketed to be a non deadly item.

Spray, foam, mace all rely on mucus membrane irritation that may/can lead to choking, inability to breath, respiratory failure, etc.
Impact weapons can cause any number of lethal damages.

Truly don't mean to sound nitpicky, but anyone choosing to utilize these tools (and they are good ones), just needs to be aware of their potential and seek proper training.

dan

[varob]

"Most" doesn't carry the freight. My best friend was severely beaten, then murdered with his own pistol AFTER spraying the guy down with MACE.

That's why I said "most, and not ALL". If pepper spray and a firearm couldn't help your friend, I don't know what will.

[Old School]

"Most" doesn't carry the freight. My best friend was severely beaten, then murdered with his own pistol AFTER spraying the guy down with MACE.

Sorry for the loss of your friend Mike1956.

The photos of the pepper spray I posted are LE grade and the containers contain enough propellent and product to get the job done "most" of the time in a non-lethal force encounter.

There is no absolute even with a firearm however you can increase your chances of surviving by having multiple SD options up to an including lethal force.

Knowing when to use what option is one of the keys to coming out on top.

The more options you have with proper training the better your chances.

Again sorry for the loss of your friend.

OS

[GrandBob]

I think that the civilian version of the Taser might be the best thing. Pop em and run.

It still might get you in a lawsuit, but at least its less than lethal and it seems to stop most people right there on the spot.

[NC Bullseye]

OS, what I'd give to have a class where the majority already had a grasp on this concept.

The ability to react sufficiently without over reacting is a gift in many ways.

[jdsumner]

"The ability to react sufficiently without over reacting is a gift in many ways." -NC Bullseye


....
dan

[Paladin3840]

We discarded MACE some 20 years ago because pepper spray, aka OC, proved significantly more effective. Given a good hit, it incapacitates about 95% of the time. Nothing instantly incapacitates 100% of the time including the Taser or a center mass hit with your favorite handgun round. In an unarmed threat situation I would argue the defender using OC employed the lesser force option at their disposal before resorting to exercising the deadly force option.

HTH skills are good to have but I would rarely go HTH if a remote control option is available. There are too many things about the assailant's skills, determination, pain threshhold, hidden weapons, nearby confederates, etc that I rather not learn the hard way. In a civilian capacity there is no duty to capture, so "spray and get away".

[Burns]

We discarded MACE some 20 years ago because pepper spray, aka OC, proved significantly more effective. Given a good hit, it incapacitates about 95% of the time. Nothing instantly incapacitates 100% of the time including the Taser or a center mass hit with your favorite handgun round. In an unarmed threat situation I would argue the defender using OC employed the lesser force option at their disposal before resorting to exercising the deadly force option.

HTH skills are good to have but I would rarely go HTH if a remote control option is available. There are too many things about the assailant's skills, determination, pain threshhold, hidden weapons, nearby confederates, etc that I rather not learn the hard way. In a civilian capacity there is no duty to capture, so "spray and get away".

MACE is just a brand name. I carry it everywhere I go. And before someone comments: It has no tear gas and no UV dye. Not all of them do. It is just 10% OC spray.

[Mike1956]

Sorry for the loss of your friend Mike1956.

The photos of the pepper spray I posted are LE grade and the containers contain enough propellent and product to get the job done "most" of the time in a non-lethal force encounter.

There is no absolute even with a firearm however you can increase your chances of surviving by having multiple SD options up to an including lethal force.

Knowing when to use what option is one of the keys to coming out on top.

The more options you have with proper training the better your chances.

Again sorry for the loss of your friend.

OS

I used the term MACE and pepper spray interchangeably. Many here are familiar with the situation I refer to, and there is a ton of info about it still on the net, but here are some Cliff Notes: Deputy Sheriff Richard Anthony Herzog, King County Sheriff's Office, Washington
Much went wrong on his officer-down encounter, and lots of Monday morning quarterbacking took place. Notwithstanding, Rick's use of pepper spray contributed directly to his demise.

[jdsumner]

I don't think anyone here wishes to MMQB this dep. Rather, I hope the situation is studied and applied for future deps in the form of Officer Survival Training. You state that "much went wrong", hopefully these things can be studied and different tactics applied in the future.

My original question still remains, with all due respect: But, what is your suggestion, then, for the continuum of force? Lotta steps 'tween strong language and .38spl.


dan